I defend my blind against QTip [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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jason_t

07-05-2005, 04:28 PM

I defended my blind against QTip last night. I knew who he was, but he didn't know who I was but I knew that if he had stats on me, they were tight and I hoped to steal this pot from him short of him flopping a monster. QTip and I spoke briefly about this hand over PM; it may or may not be interesting. With my perception of him from the forums, his stats on me (if any), my cards and this board, was this a good play?

QTip opened from the CO.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
6 folds, QTip raises, 2 folds, I 3-bet, QTip calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
I bet, QTip calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
I bet, QTip raises, I 3-bet....

jgorham

07-05-2005, 04:33 PM

I would fold an ace here, so long as it wasn't AJ or AQ, so I think this is a good play.

meep_42

07-05-2005, 04:36 PM

I'm not sure there are many hands he's raising on the turn that is ahead of you and that he won't see a showdown with. QT/JT?

-d

Evan

07-05-2005, 04:37 PM

I think a better way to start out this hand where you intend to steal the pot is to just call preflop because it leaves you with more options postflop.

meep_42

07-05-2005, 04:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold an ace here, so long as it wasn't AJ or AQ, so I think this is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 9.25:1 with decent hidden outs to split and against a thinking player? (Qtip uses PokerEdge AFAIK, so he probably has extensive stats on jason_t)

-d

PokerBob

07-05-2005, 04:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold an ace here, so long as it wasn't AJ or AQ, so I think this is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never ever ever ever ever ever. Ever.

thejameser

07-05-2005, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would fold an ace here, so long as it wasn't AJ or AQ, so I think this is a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never ever ever ever ever ever. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

EVER.

SomethingClever

07-05-2005, 04:57 PM

Without high card value, I just call preflop and checkraise any flop that hits me or gives me a draw.

I 3-bet many aces and some kings preflop here against a stealing TAG.

jgorham

07-05-2005, 05:04 PM

I guess I just have more respect for Jason then.... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

ckessel

07-05-2005, 05:14 PM

The turn 3-bet seems pointless. You're beat, you're not driving him out, you're in early position so checking behind for a free showdown is out.

I call the turn raise and fold UI. The guy 8-tables...he's not likely to be playing fancy blind steal tactics, but more ABC.

thejameser

07-05-2005, 05:19 PM

i like the pf 3 bet for the misrepresentation(considering your stats). i love the turn 3 bet because in addition to your monster draw, assuming he does not fold(which raise, fold to a 3 bet on the turn is a common line for some 2+2ers with medium-strong hands i have noticed), you are likely to showdown for free if you don't catch an 8,7 or /images/graemlins/spade.gif. and i doubt your blinds are attacked much after this.

QTip

07-05-2005, 05:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I defended my blind against QTip last night. I knew who he was, but he didn't know who I was but I knew that if he had stats on me, they were tight and I hoped to steal this pot from him short of him flopping a monster. QTip and I spoke briefly about this hand over PM; it may or may not be interesting. With my perception of him from the forums, his stats on me (if any), my cards and this board, was this a good play?

QTip opened from the CO.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
6 folds, QTip raises, 2 folds, I 3-bet, QTip calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
I bet, QTip calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
I bet, QTip raises, I 3-bet....

[/ QUOTE ]

At first I liked this after Jason and I spoke; however, I was just on a bike ride thinking about this hand, and I didn't like it. However, I didn't know Jason had all those outs either (FF), so I like it a bit more now (except PF).

Here's why I didn't like it when I was biking (not knowing he also had a FF):

If I have an Ace (and he has no reason to believe I don't), I'm not folding, period. Too many counterfeiting outs and so forth. If I call, his river scenario sucks. He has to bet, and I'm probably calling at that point.

At any rate, now that I see he had a FF, I like this better.

RiverTheNuts

07-05-2005, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I defended my blind against QTip last night. I knew who he was, but he didn't know who I was but I knew that if he had stats on me, they were tight and I hoped to steal this pot from him short of him flopping a monster. QTip and I spoke briefly about this hand over PM; it may or may not be interesting. With my perception of him from the forums, his stats on me (if any), my cards and this board, was this a good play?

QTip opened from the CO.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am BB with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
6 folds, QTip raises, 2 folds, I 3-bet, QTip calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
I bet, QTip calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
I bet, QTip raises, I 3-bet....

[/ QUOTE ]

Check raise the turn, its the only way you're getting a king or a ten to fold.. if he checks through then you're still getting a freeshot at 9-14 outs

Erik W

07-05-2005, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:
I would fold an ace here, so long as it wasn't AJ or AQ, so I think this is a good play.

I would never ever ever ever ever ever. Ever.

EVER.

clEVER

QTip

07-05-2005, 11:36 PM

I had 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Look it over here and see how you would play it.

Also, someone please help me with the math on how often Jason's 3 bet needs to get me to fold in order to be +EV.

I ran the numbers in PS, and at this point I have 70% equity in the hand (wish I knew that then /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

jason_t

07-05-2005, 11:40 PM

QTip had 99. What do you think of his play?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: QTip is CO with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
6 folds, QTip raises, 2 folds, jason_t 3-bets, QTip calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
jason_t bets, QTip calls.

Turn: (4.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
jason_t bets, QTip raises, jason_t 3-bets....

QTip

07-05-2005, 11:44 PM

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Already posted this /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyway, you need to make an edit in your hand as you have a 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif instead of a 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Jeff W

07-05-2005, 11:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I had 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Look it over here and see how you would play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd cap pre flop and probably fold the flop the way the hand played out. I'd definitely fold to the turn bet.

His turn 3-bet needs to succeed approximately:

[1-(n/46)]/9.25-[1-(x/46)]*P(Cap)

where n is the number of outs he has on average, x is the number of outs he has on average when you cap and P(Cap) is the probability that you will cap. You can figure these out straightforwardly from your hand range, but you're on your own for that.

jason_t

07-05-2005, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Already posted this /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Anyway, you need to make an edit in your hand as you have a 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif instead of a 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ha. We posted at almost the same time. Thank you, fixed.

QTip

07-05-2005, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I had 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Look it over here and see how you would play it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd cap pre flop and probably fold the flop the way the hand played out. I'd definitely fold to the turn bet.

His turn 3-bet needs to succeed approximately:

[1-(n/46)]/9.25-[1-(x/46)]*P(Cap)

where n is the number of outs he has on average, x is the number of outs he has on average when you cap and P(Cap) is the probability that you will cap. You can figure these out straightforwardly from your hand range, but you're on your own for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Jeff, I'll try and work this out (math...I suck but trying to get better).

Anyway, I should have capped PF, and I'm not sure why I didn't. I actually remember having the mouse over it and then didn't for whatever reason...it would have made this hand easier to play, that's for sure.

Jeff W

07-06-2005, 12:09 AM

Also, I think reraising 87s is gross FPS.

SmileyEH

07-06-2005, 12:22 AM

Just call PF, checkraise the flop and go from there. I don't like either player's lines.

-SmileyEH

Buck_65

07-06-2005, 12:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think reraising 87s is gross FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very much agreed (this is coming from someone who suffers from chronic FPS). Nice hand, but not a big fan.

flair1239

07-06-2005, 02:01 AM

Just from a quick look I would say Qtip had a hand on the flop and was either letting you fire again or was waiting for the turn to see if another heart fell.

He is getting 5-1 on a calldown at this point. Also a drawy board is going to make him be thinking of turn semi-bluff type things.

Willluck

07-06-2005, 03:13 AM

I am sorry Jason_t but you have to fold PF on this hand, sure I understand you are trying to "mix it up" but seriously dude I think you could've found a better spot than this.

donger

07-06-2005, 03:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry Jason_t but you have to fold PF on this hand, sure I understand you are trying to "mix it up" but seriously dude I think you could've found a better spot than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this PF in this situation is really bad.

jason_t

07-06-2005, 03:58 AM

morberg

07-06-2005, 05:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Without high card value, I just call preflop and checkraise any flop that hits me or gives me a draw.

I 3-bet many aces and some kings preflop here against a stealing TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

SmileyEH

07-06-2005, 09:47 AM

axioma

07-06-2005, 10:03 AM

i generally prefer the call/check-raise approch when protecting blinds.

3 betting is for resteals on the button against the CO.

PokerBob

07-06-2005, 10:24 AM

If I was going to make this hand into an art-house movie, I'd have 2 naked guys measuring their dicks and glaring at each other.

MisterKing

07-06-2005, 10:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Check raise the turn, its the only way you're getting a king or a ten to fold.. if he checks through then you're still getting a freeshot at 9-14 outs

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line.

MisterKing

07-06-2005, 10:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry Jason_t but you have to fold PF on this hand, sure I understand you are trying to "mix it up" but seriously dude I think you could've found a better spot than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding pf is burning money. It is nowhere near close.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You've got to play a gigantic range against Q-Tip's PF raise. See HEPFAP on heads up play to see just how wide your range needs to be to avoid giving the raiser an automatic profit.

McGahee

07-06-2005, 10:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Without high card value, I just call preflop and checkraise any flop that hits me or gives me a draw.

I 3-bet many aces and some kings preflop here against a stealing TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you think about doing the opposite in each scenerio for deception purposes?

Say I have QTs - I'd think villian would be more likely to believe he's beaten on a A97 flop if I 3-bet PF.

If I have AJ I'll call PF, C/R a rags flop, as he might give me credit for something there too.

Meh?

Jeff W

07-06-2005, 10:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I was going to make this hand into an art-house movie, I'd have 2 naked guys measuring their dicks and glaring at each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHAHA.

jjacky

07-06-2005, 10:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry Jason_t but you have to fold PF on this hand, sure I understand you are trying to "mix it up" but seriously dude I think you could've found a better spot than this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding pf is burning money. It is nowhere near close.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. You've got to play a gigantic range against Q-Tip's PF raise. See HEPFAP on heads up play to see just how wide your range needs to be to avoid giving the raiser an automatic profit.

[/ QUOTE ]

i do agree that a fold is no good play. but i don't like your reasoning. the FPR from the CO is supposed to show a profit on average AFTER the button and the SB folded.

sthief09

07-06-2005, 11:01 AM

/images/graemlins/heart.gif PBob

sthief09

07-06-2005, 11:02 AM

if I was jason, I would call rpeflop, call the turn, and check the river
if I was QTip I'd cap preflop, call the flop, and fold the turn

sthief09

07-06-2005, 11:04 AM

foldign is worse than 3-betting but 3-betting is dumb

Two_Slick

07-06-2005, 11:27 AM

Maybe the guy who said fold didn't realize Jason was in the BB?