pre-flop decision

[maxpowers21]

Sb is 59/15.5/1.4 over 150 hands

What kind of things should i be thinking about when deciding to either reraise or call this preflop raise.

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6 BB

[cocofrite]

Isn't it a bit weak to fold to a check raise on the flop ?
Wouldn't SB do this with AT, AQ, any pair lower than your TT, TQ, a flush draw ?
What about 3 betting this flop ?

I don't like capping with middle pair, I prefer doing this with AQs for instance then you get better pot odds for your draws.

And, by the way, I get my ass kicked real hard at 10-20

[maxpowers21]

One of the arguements that i make for capping preflop is that when aggresion is shown post flop on flops like these i will much more likley be behind.

Even if my opponet is semibluffing here he has at least as much equity as I do, i don't think playing back is +EV here, but i suck at poker and am open to counter points.

As for preflop, I think it's close to calling and capping, would like some thoughts on the pros and cons of each.

[MrTeddyKGB]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero folds

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I would fold this hand on this board aggainst this player...never. This is very bad. You can not even consider folding on the flop getting 11-1 aggainst a rock when you consider your set and backdoor flush and strait outs. A crazy aggresive player like this I would call all the way down. Fold the flop? not even for Tony Soprano

[maxpowers21]

Sorry maybe i posted stat numbers out of common order

VPIP-59
raise pf-15.5
AAT- 1.4

1.4 is more passive then aggresive, so im not sure where you get his crazy aggresiveness from

[MrTeddyKGB]

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Even if my opponet is semibluffing here he has at least as much equity as I do, i don't think playing back is +EV here, but i suck at poker and am open to counter points.


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Your thinking is off here. When a bad loose aggesive goes crazy with you in a blind steal situation and you have a premiem hand you have to show it down. He does not need a semi-bluff hand to play back at you here. You are thinking way too weak and probably fold way to much in spots like this. No way are you behind even 50% of the time in this spot. to fold the flop you need to be over 95% sure you are beat? No way he might have 22 or 67 he plays most of his hands give him action.

[DMBFan23]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry maybe i posted stat numbers out of common order

VPIP-59
raise pf-15.5
AAT- 1.4

1.4 is more passive then aggresive, so im not sure where you get his crazy aggresiveness from

[/ QUOTE ]

with VP$IP that high, many times we assume he does so much calling post flop with very marginal hands that he must also do a crazy amount of betting with less than-made hands in order to balance out that ratio

[MrTeddyKGB]

1.4 is more passive then aggresive, so im not sure where you get his crazy aggresiveness from

In a blind steal a guy that plays 60 and rasies 16 is going to be much more agg ussually. I often see these guys go crazy in these spots. Folding on the flop cant be an option here but I would be interested if others feel different.

[maxpowers21]

I think your assumtions that hes a maniac are not warrented, im tryign to play solid poker, and im not going to just call down haphazardly any hand that has showdown value pf when this is an obvious bad flop for me.

Now granted 3-betting might be better than folding here, but under no circumstances can i assume this guy is a maniac, he has reasonable agression numbers

Plus i capped pre flop on a paint flop and got check-raised. Even against very lag players, which this player isnt, they usually wont play back here without a hand or a strong draw. IMO

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
What kind of things should i be thinking about when deciding to either reraise or call this preflop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
You should realize that you have a strong pot equity position and need to play to exploit it.

The obvious way to do this is cap preflop and that is the normal play.

Against a predictable player who will always bet the flop after his 3-bet but always check to you when you cap, you may do better by smoothcalling preflop. Now your plan is to recover your extra bet by raising the flop or turn. The advantage is that after a bad flop like this one you can save money by skipping the raise and just calling down.

In essence you are deferring your raise until you see whether you like the flop.

You have too many backdoors not to peel a card on the flop. Whether you should call down is less clear. You should not go strictly by pot odds when deciding whether to take a card in these situations. He isn't going to bet the turn 100% of the time so you will get some extra chances to go along with your outs. These free cards make mildly loose calls viable. You also want to make these loose calls to balance your play. You are creating a reason why he needs to continue his bluffs and semibluffs onto the turn so that your good hands can snap him off. Otherwise bluffing becomes too cheap for him because he can knock out too many hands with cheap flop bets.

[maxpowers21]

PS, Im also having trouble puttign him on hands that i beat, other then a flush draw, that he would 3bet preflop, and check raise me on this board.

I mean of course he can be open-ended or just have a flush dra, but i beleive more often then not he will have paint here.

P.S. Also, after thinking this over more i think its close between folding and continuing here, because i do have some added equity with the ten of hearts.

[MrTeddyKGB]

you have have about 4 outs if you are behind which is enough to call on the flop if you are behind, than and the
extra chance to draw out on the river plus the opp is way
too loose pre-flop and you may be ahead you should at the very least see the turn and often call down. If you fold these kind of hands on the flop you open youself to some pretty expensive semi-bluffs.

[MrTeddyKGB]

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PS, Im also having trouble puttign him on hands that i beat, other then a flush draw, that he would 3bet preflop, and check raise me on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]
22, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99, A10, Q10, Q9, AQ, 2hearts


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I mean of course he can be open-ended or just have a flush dra, but i beleive more often then not he will have paint here

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So what even if it is 75-25 that he has you beat you cant fold the flop.

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P.S. Also, after thinking this over more i think its close between folding and continuing here, because i do have some added equity with the ten of hearts.

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You also can make a strait or a set. He may check the turn. A king may come on the turn making it less likley he has one.

[maxpowers21]

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you have have about 4 outs if you are behind which is enough to call on the flop if you are behind, than and the
extra chance to draw out on the river plus the opp is way
too loose pre-flop and you may be ahead you should at the very least see the turn and often call down. If you fold these kind of hands on the flop you open youself to some pretty expensive semi-bluffs.

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ageed. But i don't think i would count a full 4 outs when behind here, it would be slightly less, but i think your last line might be the best of all reasons to call here.

Curious though what would be the play if i don't have a heart?

[maxpowers21]

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[ QUOTE ]
PS, Im also having trouble puttign him on hands that i beat, other then a flush draw, that he would 3bet preflop, and check raise me on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]
22, 44, 55, 66, 77, 88, 99, A10, Q10, Q9, AQ, 2hearts


[ QUOTE ]
I mean of course he can be open-ended or just have a flush dra, but i beleive more often then not he will have paint here

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So what even if it is 75-25 that he has you beat you cant fold the flop.

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P.S. Also, after thinking this over more i think its close between folding and continuing here, because i do have some added equity with the ten of hearts.

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You also can make a strait or a set. He may check the turn. A king may come on the turn making it less likley he has one.

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Again i don't beleive that a player with his aggresion numbers is going to raise a capped pot with these types of pairs 22-99 on this paint flop, is this debatable or am i just flat wrong? I woudl like soem more input on what these aggresion numbers mean then if i am.

I definately agree with you ont he 2nd point, my odds+ chance that I'm good make it a call on the flop, however, The turn becomes much more dificult a decsion, so my efective odds are really much worse for a calldown because I will end up paying 2.5 BB's for a calldown greatly reducing my odds, and when I am good here, if he is semi-bluffing reverse implied odds will cut further into my pot equity.

So i think a call is correct on the flop, but a calldown, I don't know i'd have to crunch some math for that, my intuition tells me that it wouldn't be correct to call down unimproved though depending on the turn card....

[sam h]

Capping preflop is better and its not really close. You have a big equity edge over his range of hands, and you don't have the type of Grade A hammer (AA, KK) that is conducive to slowplaying and gaining extra bets later. There are too many boards with overcards, in which trying to recoup bets after the flop becomes tricky. As you noted in another post, capping preflop also makes the hand easier to play. For instance, I think the suggestion somebody else made that this guy could have 22 or AQ is pretty unlikely. He's not that aggressive, you capped, and now he's coming after you. He's got you beat &gt;75% of the time here, IMO, and has a heart draw or OESD the other times.

In this case, I would still call the flop and see what comes off on the turn. You have a lot of backdoor draws, and you don't want to make it seem so easy to move you off a hand you capped preflop.

[MrTeddyKGB]

[ QUOTE ]
So i think a call is correct on the flop, but a calldown, I don't know i'd have to crunch some math for that, my intuition tells me that it wouldn't be correct to call down unimproved though depending on the turn card....

[/ QUOTE ]

I did not say I would call down everytime I would need a read beyond regular PT stats. I was just saying it for emphisis to show that folding to the flop is not good. Usually I would see what the turn was then decide. But I dont think this is a auto fold. As if you were UTG in a full game.