I might fold too much

[rory]

Flop call, turn call? I've started breathing when I play, and now I play slower. And I'm starting to notice myself calling or raising in spots where I would have been folding before because I took the time to think it out before I acted. Here is one of the calling times. Are these like automatic easy calls I have just been flat-out missing? It felt weird enough so that I know I haven't been making them.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $30.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

[rory]

Sorry to post a 7 handed hand on HUSH-- I'm just so used to posting all of my hands here that I didn't notice.

[obsidian]

Hmm, not sure if I make these calls either. I would however c/r the river.

[ISF]

I would usually toss this flop with the ragged board and two callers. Once you pick up the gutshot I think the turn is an easy call.

[wheelz]

Damn, I would also fold this flop without much thought, but now that I look at it it's actually a call. Maybe I fold too much too..

[spamuell]

If your backdoor flush draw is 1.5 outs, backdoor straight draw is one out (because sometimes you split or lose to a higher straight) and your ace is 1.5 outs, you have 4 outs on the flop so yeah you can call closing the action getting 13:1. Especially because occasionally MP1 is betting his QJ or AQ or whatever (maybe even 77) and checks the turn and MP2 checks behind.

Turn is the same, gutshot, overcard, it's surely a call getting 9:1 even given that sometimes you lose a bet or even 2 when you hit an ace.

[Noodles]

[ QUOTE ]
I would usually toss this flop with the ragged board and two callers. Once you pick up the gutshot I think the turn is an easy call

[/ QUOTE ]

yea i thought this too but he is getting 13/1 and closing action,with 2 kinda bd str8s and a bd nut flush and ace,so i would peel one

[partygirluk]

Unless opps are really passiv (or aggresive even to raise you) I'd go for a river c/r as they can't put you on a 4.

[wowacedude]

[ QUOTE ]
Damn, I would also fold this flop without much thought, but now that I look at it it's actually a call. Maybe I fold too much too..

[/ QUOTE ]

I might even cut down to playing two tables again after reading the "Profit Versus Development" and now looking at this.

[Bluffoon]

With reverse implied odds on the back door draws I see the flop call as EV neutral at best. Can anyone convince me it's not? To me the turn call is much more clear cut.

[rory]

Yeah-- I wasn't too confident about MPs value betting skills so I went for the sure thing.

[wheelz]

He has the nut backdoor flush draw, there aren't any reverse implied odds there

[ckessel]

I don't get it, why would you call that flop? You're getting great odds, but you've got almost nothing except backdoor draws. Your ace would seem very likely dominated even if it came costing you more when dominated than you'd likely gain when you aren't.

Then the turn you've got 9:1 on the gutshot, which is maybe barely sufficient counting implied odds and that's assuming you never split the pot.

[Grisgra]

Yeah, the flop call is one of those that if you are playing fast or 4-tabling you might miss. I think it's marginal but a tiny bit +EV. Whatshisnuts's how-many-outs analysis is accurate IMO. Turn call is obviously good. I don't go for the river checkraise without reads, because a 4-straight, even a backdoor one, will freeze up a lot of people.

[Bluffoon]

He still has to pay again to draw on the turn. Doesn't that lower the effective odds? Maybe I don't understand the concept.

[rory]

This analysis is why I called. It is pretty basic stuff, you don't even have to know anything about poker to do it. Just math. But it was foreign to me to make this call. A big wake-up call about not playing fast and autopiloting. I still have leaks in basic poker strategy in my game and I only caught this one because I've been making an effort to slow down. I wonder how many other obvious things have been going on that I have been missing?

[Danenania]

I like every street. Heads-up I would go for a river c/r but with that additional opponent around betting out is better.

[Noodles]

Counting in having to call again on the turn is effective odds,doesnt count here as he doesnt HAVE to go to the river.

Reverse implied is when you are in a early positon with players yet to call behind you,you have to factor in that they could raise, he is in 2nd last here i think

Actually if he was in 2nd position here i might fold

[Noodles]

with 2 to call the flop behind him ,would he still call having to weigh in the chance of a raise behind him maybe and then even a reraise from pfr?
id probably fold if i was in mp here,correct?