Developing Hand Reading Skills

[TaoTe]

Any tips for honing your hand reading skills. I find that I want to develop this part of my game more than any other, as the way I've heard, it is as important as any other. What are some useful tips for developing/improving hand reading? I've read TOP and continually try to put people on hands while not playing, but either I lack the ability to do it with consistency, or I'm not training that area as hard as I should be.

[Idaho Ave]

I was a terrible hand reader as a beggining player.
I am not a great hand reader now by anymeans.
I believe experience, and lots of it for that matter is the only way to improve your ability to "put opponents on a range of hands."

[Rolen]

Two ways to do it. Either play a quarter of a million hands of poker or spend that time watching a quarter of a million hands of poker. Your subconscious will pick stuff up much easier than active learning. If you're a winning player, choose route 1..And if not, route two.

[TaoTe]

Why 250K hands, is that a tested number or are you just saying "It's gonna' take awhile."

[fireman664]

I play a game with myself when I am at the table, but not involved in a hand, where I try to put the players in the hand ON a hand.....exact hands, suits and everything (if they are relevant to the hand). I will be saying to myself "ok, UTG has AQ, and LP guy probably has 2nd pair, so he could have J10, or J9"...youll be amazed at how quick you will start getting it close, and then how that will affect your confident when you are in the hand.

[OrianasDaad]

I use PT to help read hands. I can do many quickly using the replayer (with hole cards checked off).

Lots of practice is the best way to go. Lots and lots of practice and being honest with yourself. Good luck.

[Student]

Great approach!

Dave

[MrStretchie]

I also find taking copious amounts of notes helps. (When playing online.) Every time you see a player do anything and get to see their hand (or even when you can deduce it by their actions throughout), make a note.
"pfr ajo" raises pre-flop with ajo
"b/f f bp" bet-folds (bets, folds to raise) flop with bottom pair
etc
You could write out the whole notes, but after you've done a bunch the shorthand becomes inevitable. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
At least for me, this helps in two ways. First off, when I'm playing against these specific players it allows me to have a much better idea of what their actions mean later. Average players don't generally alter their play.
Second, once you've made a note about a specific action enough times, you get used to people doing it, and you get used to it coming from a certain type of player. Then you basically just have to recognize that player X is one of 'those', and you'll be able to read him pretty well.

Hope that helps. I'm still getting there myself, but I'm convinced I'm on the right path. I've also found it's easier playing SH, as you'll see more hands showed down, and have less players to concentrate on. But you need to be good at SH play to avoid dumping a bunch of $$ there..

[TaoTe]

I play poor/average at SH. Unfortunately, I run the flash version of Pokerroom and there is no note taking. I've been trying to run VPC, but it's been a nightmare.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
I play poor/average at SH. Unfortunately, I run the flash version of Pokerroom and there is no note taking. I've been trying to run VPC, but it's been a nightmare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe use Excel and then search for the username? Regardless, the mere act of forcing yourself to notice will do you a lot of good. As stated above by another poster, eventually you'll quickly be able to classify people as "one of those guys" and be able to make some pretty sweet conclusions. Of course I must insert the disclaimer that relying too much on such conclusions can be very bad as each player is different, even the same player mixes up their play sometimes, etc. but I think my educated "feelings" have made/saved me a lot of money in marginal situations. When the math is telling you something totally different than your read you had better have a really strong read and even then should probably go with the math, particularly at low limits. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I play poor/average at SH. Unfortunately, I run the flash version of Pokerroom and there is no note taking. I've been trying to run VPC, but it's been a nightmare.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe use Excel and then search for the username? Regardless, the mere act of forcing yourself to notice will do you a lot of good. As stated above by another poster, eventually you'll quickly be able to classify people as "one of those guys" and be able to make some pretty sweet conclusions. Of course I must insert the disclaimer that relying too much on such conclusions can be very bad as each player is different, even the same player mixes up their play sometimes, etc. but I think my educated "feelings" have made/saved me a lot of money in marginal situations. When the math is telling you something totally different than your read you had better have a really strong read and even then should probably go with the math, particularly at low limits. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

OoOoOoo that poster was me.
Better than excel would be to find Some Way to get a poker client with note taking though.. Especially at this level, I'd suggest one table in the middle of your screen with each person's notes open beside them. You want them easily accessible in-game.
Also, as anyone will say, poker tracker is a must.. can't remember whether you said you used it. Essentially it allows you to save the note taking for important/specific things, not just "plays too many hands", etc. Plus records of your own play are extremely helpful.
Agreed to everything POV said.

[TaoTe]

Does Pokertracker run on Mac? I'm guessing it doesn't, and since it would take several seconds to do a search and find out, I have to decline because I can't spare the time. I work in the fast action world of a public library. Oh look, the grass grew a little. Wait, no I can't see any grass, just concrete.

I find it much easier to make decisions with live play than online. 1)a table online may break down in minutes, with players coming and leaving so fast it's hard to even notice someone new sat in 2) Getting a read on someone is nearly impossible online, it seems more analytical 3) the time limits kill me. I always act slowly, but I guess the site has to keep pumping out hands to generate the $$$. 4) I had another point but I forgot it, so forget it.

I'm working on an evaluation list for helping improve hand reading. I don't think it will be anything new, but its only for me. I'll post it on here though because I'll need help and feedback.

Man, it feels like I'm all over the place today. I drank some coffee and I rarely ever drink caffeine. Ack. London's burning and gas prices are rising. Canada sounds nice.

[MrStretchie]

Ah.. which is exactly why notes are vital. That way you don't have to remember which player is which or keep track of them coming and going. Not sure if PT runs on Mac, but as you said, you could obviously check.
I'm going to agree with you though that if you can't take notes or run PT, better to stick to live play. Concept's the same though. Make a mental note of Everything they do. Situations they check-raise in. What kind of hands they slowplay. Where they're willing to bluff. What they'll raise preflop. How much they need to go to showdown, etc. First it'll help because you'll get in those exact situations with them, and it's a pretty good bet that if they've acted some way once or twice, they will again. (Talking about poor-slightly above average players..) Then you can 'read' them easily. Also, after you've noticed enough things, it'll begin to come together into a general picture.

Canada is nice. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
I've also found it's easier playing [shorthanded], as you'll see more hands showed down, and have less players to concentrate on. But you need to be good at SH play to avoid dumping a bunch of $$ there..

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting suggestion. I've been considering working on my shorthanded game quite more intentionally. In addition to the advantages you cite, I see being able to start games at a site/limit without full games as an advantage. (More at Omaha, actually, but also ocassionally in hold 'em.) This in turn might allow me to prop sometime down the road. And short-handed play is very handy in sit-and-gos and the final table of bigger tournaments. Most people have neglected it, and I'm willing to learn, so I want to claim that advantage!

[Student]

I'm not sure about limit HE, but I know PS has heads-up tables for NL HE, even at the 1/2 cents level. All that's required is 2 willing players, and the game goes on...

Dave

[snowgurts]

When I first started working on hand reading techniques, I started with myself. I was amazed how many tells I could pick up on myself by just paying attention. And it transferred to other tells on other people.

With reading hands instead of people, you can use the same technique. For example, I always bet a certain amount preflop when I had a pocket pair and bet a certain different amount with two high suited cards, etc. See if you can't pick up "hand tells" on other people like that, too.

Aside from all that, just study extensively on the game and outsmart folks -- just get into their mindset, figure out what they're doing, thinking, etc. and let that guide you.