first 1900 6max hands - should I quit now?

[joop]

This was my first attempt at 6max, after doing some reading on the subject and following the starting hand chart posted here last week, I thought I would be okay. Usually I play 2/4 full and have beaten it over the last 100k hands, was thinking of moving up to 3/6 full, but decided I would take this route to 3/6 6max.

I'm pretty stunned. The players are the worst I've ever come accross. I exercised awesome table selection, most of the tables I've been sat at have VPIP's over 50 and PFR's under 10, but I've suffered more bad beats in the last 1,900 hands than my last 20,000 at 2/4. What gives? Should I just keep on truckin through it? Is this normal for 6max? I heard the swings were bad, but maybe I just suck? Guidance would be appreciated.

Cheers,

joop

http://www.zen52309.zen.co.uk/6max.jpg

[Roy6]

you probably had bad luck and got the "weak-tight" tilt.
You could up your VPIP a little bit, also raise more. At the 1/2 blind structure you should defend your BB way much more. I'd advise you to take another shot at 1/2 (if you're interested in 6max) when there's a decent bonus - you can clear it at these tables damn fast.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
should I quit now?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I am not being facetious. You are way too weak tight to succeed at 6-max. Let me guess: your full ring VPIP is 12?

Edit: This is a little harsh. You can succeed at 6-max with some effort, but you have several fundamental pre flop leaks--VPIP, PFR, ASB and FBB are all far from optimal.

[krishanleong]

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=2236527&fpa rt=&PHPSESSID=)

Krishan

[marand]

[ QUOTE ]
This was my first attempt at 6max, after doing some reading on the subject and following the starting hand chart posted here last week, I thought I would be okay. Usually I play 2/4 full and have beaten it over the last 100k hands, was thinking of moving up to 3/6 full, but decided I would take this route to 3/6 6max.

I'm pretty stunned. The players are the worst I've ever come accross. I exercised awesome table selection, most of the tables I've been sat at have VPIP's over 50 and PFR's under 10, but I've suffered more bad beats in the last 1,900 hands than my last 20,000 at 2/4. What gives? Should I just keep on truckin through it? Is this normal for 6max? I heard the swings were bad, but maybe I just suck? Guidance would be appreciated.

Cheers,

joop

http://www.zen52309.zen.co.uk/6max.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding your BB to steal 90% is horrible. You need to loosen up, defend your BB more and steal more.

You are supertight preflop, you only get to SD 31% and you still only win less than 47% at SD.
Your sample size is really really small and you have obviously been running very bad.

Don't give up yet, but make sure you are not really playing as tight as your limited stats suggests.

[Surfbullet]

Sample size too small.

Surf

[Willluck]

[ QUOTE ]
This was my first attempt at 6max, after doing some reading on the subject and following the starting hand chart posted here last week, I thought I would be okay. Usually I play 2/4 full and have beaten it over the last 100k hands, was thinking of moving up to 3/6 full, but decided I would take this route to 3/6 6max.

I'm pretty stunned. The players are the worst I've ever come accross. I exercised awesome table selection, most of the tables I've been sat at have VPIP's over 50 and PFR's under 10, but I've suffered more bad beats in the last 1,900 hands than my last 20,000 at 2/4. What gives? Should I just keep on truckin through it? Is this normal for 6max? I heard the swings were bad, but maybe I just suck? Guidance would be appreciated.

Cheers,

joop

http://www.zen52309.zen.co.uk/6max.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]
your stats are after too low of a sample size, so your vpip and PFR may be from cold cards.

Edited because I thought this was 3/6.

[obithrawn]

I am having similar problems with sixmax, ie my pfr and vpip are way too low.

But I am unsure as to where to look to start making more raises and playing more hands. Is there any good general advice on how to begin to look at that or will it have to be done on a cas by case basis?

I find I have a lot of trouble with hands when there are 1-2 limpers in front of me, and call when I should be raising. In these smaller games should I be raising most hands with 1 limper, as if I was opening?

[sy_or_bust]

I wouldn't go to far with telling the OP that it's a sample size issue. He's definitely running bad, but there are some major weaknesses in those stats (many of which have been pointed out already) that probably inhibit OP from being much of a winner in any longterm scenario.

[joop]

My VPIP is from using the preflop starting hands chart that I found in this forum last week, I figured I would use that since I'm new to 6max, it's not time to take the training wheels off just yet. It gave me a VPIP of 18.81, not sure what I can do about that at this stage.

In regards to defending my blinds, I was playing at very loose tables, the number of times I had to defend a steal raise was very low, only 11 out of 1903 hands in the BB. Here are the filtered stats, not sure which of these hands I should have been defending out of those that I didn't.

http://www.zen52309.zen.co.uk/bbsteal.jpg

Oh, and I don't play weak tight, my VPIP for full ring is 17.2. Here are my aggression numbers for 6max thus far.

http://www.zen52309.zen.co.uk/aggress.jpg

Anyway, thanks krishanleong and others for the contsructive guidance.

joop

[joop]

[ QUOTE ]
I am having similar problems with sixmax, ie my pfr and vpip are way too low

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been using this (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=headsup&Number=1256134 &fpart=1&PHPSESSID=) starting hand chart, you might want to give that a go.

[Petro]

Looking at your AF, it looks like you're going a little overboard with aggresion (sample size is an issue, though)

The HUSH forum preaches, aggression, aggression, and more aggression, but the 1/2 6max game @ Party is really a passive game. Make sure you're listening to what the passive calling stations are telling you.

I would only defend with KJo -- the rest of those I muck.

[blackize]

I agree. Most 1/2 6 max party tables cannot be beat with pure aggression. It takes a lot of practice to realize who you can bully. Learn what hands each player at your table is willing to call down with and what they are willing to raise with. Once you know this it becomes very easy to valuebet.

Also you need to be aware that at this level almost no one raises just to steal your blind. They are usually raising a hand that they would raise otherwise.

[SlyGuy]

I disagree that ppl don't steal a lot at 1/2. Not as much as the 3/6 sh game but still enough to defend.

[blackize]

Youre wrong. Over my last 10k hands 85+% of steal situations have been raised by opponents holding hands that I would likely raise UTG.

[HajiShirazu]

All the people will say you are playing weak tight, and your attempt to steal is really low, but the 1/2 game is the sort of game where you hardly ever get to steal at all anyway and there's no reason to do it without a good hand since you lose 10% as soon as the flop hits which it does every time, as they always call. I beat the heck out of that game with numbers only a little looser than what you have, I suggest running better, raising a little more often in the CO and button but not going overboard, and perhaps checking a few more turns and rivers since you have no FE against most of these guys postflop but they often give free cards with the better hand.

[Grisgra]

19/12? Definitely too tight. If you are coming from 2/4 full, I *strongly* suggest that you don't leap right into 3/6 short. Play 1/2 short, either at Party or at Paradise. SH is tough and tricky, and you're not used to it. Moving up in limits while trying to learn what is in many ways a completely new game is just a bad call, Ripley.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
The 1/2 game is the sort of game where you hardly ever get to steal at all anyway and there's no reason to do it without a good hand since you lose 10% as soon as the flop hits which it does every time, as they always call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're missing the point of a "steal" raise. Consider this:

equity (%)
34 { J8o }
33 { random }
33 { random }

A weak hand like J8o has positive equity against 2 random hands. Compound that with the advantages of position and initiative against awful, passive opponents and you have a good reason to open raise in steal position. The only disadvantage to "steal"-raising in the 1/2 is the rake, but at 20% ASB we are not close to the point where the rake forces us to eliminate otherwise profitable hands.

[sweetjazz]

You should spend a lot of time watching how other people in the game are playing, particularly the ones that are too loose and/or too aggressive.

Understand what their mistakes are, and devise ways to exploit their errors. FWIW, playing less than 20% of your hands and going to showdown 31% of the time won't accomplish this goal.

The key is not to worry about your stats, but to recognize that your play is not optimal given the play of your opponents. If they are raising on the flop with any piece of it, you can't simply call down a pair of aces because you have a 10 kicker.

[StellarWind]

90% folded BB to steal seems way too high but ...

1. The sample size for that stat must be very small.

2. Most players in the 1/2 game only "steal" with good hands, often only premium hands.

3. The extreme looseness of the game increases the percentage of steals coming from cutoff. Button just doesn't get many chances to go first.

4. The high rake reduces your odds.

So it may not be all that bad. It is very important in this game to identify the minority of players who steal with a wide range of hands and defend properly against them. Then you can play nice and tight against the rest.

[MrTeddyKGB]

Your folded BB to steal is and you atsb are by for your biggest weakness. these are way off no matter what style of play you have. You will 100% be a losser in 6 max unless you play and play aggesive in these spots.

[Derek in NYC]

You are tighter than a nun's anus. Loosen up, raise more, defend your big blind more. Postflop, remembet that marginal hands need to go farther than in full ring.

Unlike some of the others here, while I think your ASB is lower than normal, I won't say this is your biggest leak. The problem with increasing your steal attempts is that often you won't win preflop, and will need to try stealing again on the flop or on 4th street. This is where SH steals get tricky, and for somebody unused to the aggressiveness of SH play, trying to steal preflop but easily giving up on the flop or 4th street, is a good way to get run over by aggressive players who will re-steal from you at any sign of weakness.

[MrStretchie]

[ QUOTE ]
Your folded BB to steal is and you atsb are by for your biggest weakness. these are way off no matter what style of play you have. You will 100% be a losser in 6 max unless you play and play aggesive in these spots.

[/ QUOTE ]

You saw the hands he folded to a steal though, right? There were only 11 of them or something, and the *best* one that he mucked was something like 93o..
Although.. I don't see exactly how out of 1900 hands, so ~300 big blinds, he only faced 'steal' rases 11 times..

[MrStretchie]

Hi Joop..
Realized this while replying below. How is it that over about 300 big blinds you only faced steal raises 11 times? Is that stat right?

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Joop..
Realized this while replying below. How is it that over about 300 big blinds you only faced steal raises 11 times? Is that stat right?

[/ QUOTE ]
It could be. In this game one of the first two players may open 80% of the time. Now your 300 big blinds are reduced to a mere 60 opportunities for cutoff. Now figure that cutoff raises 10% and limps most of the rest and suddenly it's easy to see where 11 comes from.

Even if only defending the BB with strong hands is not always correct play, it is not a serious obstacle to beating the 1/2 6-max game. It just doesn't come up very much and given the calibre of hands you are defending against there usually isn't much money to be made anyway.

[joop]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi Joop..
Realized this while replying below. How is it that over about 300 big blinds you only faced steal raises 11 times? Is that stat right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the stat is correct. Like I said, the tables I was playing had VPIP's over 50%, so that explains why this number is so low.

The reason I posted originally was because I was disgusted with dropping so many big bets so quickly against such pathetic opponents. It was more of a "tell me this happens a lot at 6max, please" post, not a stats analysis post.

Sure, I followed the starting hand chart, but I'm sure over more hands it will give me a higher VPIP than 18%. And the other stats are meaningless given the sample size. I'm a winning player at 2/4, I do steal liberally, I do defend my blinds when required against players I suspect are stealing, I play a TAG game, I have spent a lot of time reading how to play shorthanded, and I'm 100% confident the game I was playing was a winning game.

I will post back in 20,000 hands when a stats post might have some meaning.

Anyway, thanks to everyone that contributed and gave me advice, hopefully you'll be just as forthcoming when I start posting hands I'm unsure of during my new 6max adventure!

/images/graemlins/smile.gif