AK driving me crazy, today!

[yabastid]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t2455)
Hero (t1240)
UTG (t730)
MP1 (t450)
MP2 (t830)
CO (t1125)
Button (t1170)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t100</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t345</font>, Hero ???

Final Pot: t505

No real reads although villian may have just started to get a little out of line- not sure though I was 4 tabling.

yabastid

[ZBTHorton]

Well. According to the other thread, AKs plays 'really well' multi-handed. So this is a push obviously.

[flyingmoose]

On holidays, I trust hands like AKs and QQ a LOT more than I normally would. Too many drunks online to fold AKs today. Pooooosh!

If it were St Patty's day, I wouldn't even fold JJ 7-handed /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[Bigwig]

I push.

[yabastid]

[ QUOTE ]
On holidays, I trust hands like AKs and QQ a LOT more than I normally would. Too many drunks online to fold AKs today. Pooooosh!

If it were St Patty's day, I wouldn't even fold JJ 7-handed /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[yabastid]

[ QUOTE ]
Well. According to the other thread, AKs plays 'really well' multi-handed. So this is a push obviously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Read sarcasm?

[45suited]

I take it that I'm the only one who folds here?

[yabastid]

[ QUOTE ]
I take it that I'm the only one who folds here?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I did. And then I looked in the mirror and called myself a weak tight pussy and cried for a while.

[ImNotSoLucky]

Well ZBTHorton since you are referring to my earlier post in an extremely sarcastic fashion for no apparent reason, I guess i'll defend myself somewhat. The only reason I made that comment on another thread was I have read and heard in many different places that AK is THE premier drawing hand. Combine that with the knowledge that in MULTI WAY pots you would rather have a good drawing hand than a made hand that stands little room to improve such as AA or KK and through a little 4th grade deductive reasoning you can conclude that AKs plays a lot better in multi way pots than AA-TT. If you would like to critique a post of mine from here on out maybe you can back it up with something more than sarcastic comments

[donny5k]

He's referring more to my post. I was of course not referring to a 3-way allin when I said that. And it's not that AKs plays better than AA multiway, it's that strong draws play well in multiway pots. And AKs has a lot of strong drawing potential. AKs plays well with any number of players: with big multiway pots you can flop a flush draw and have a huge +EV situation, or you can hit a pair that will hold up well with multiway action.

To clarify even more, when I refer to it playing well multiway I'm not talking about how often it wins at showdown in a multiway race situation, I'm referring to implied odds concepts.

Edit: Also, I didn't invent this statement myself, it comes from Sklansky.

[xcrack999]

[ QUOTE ]
in MULTI WAY pots you would rather have a good drawing hand than a made hand that stands little room to improve such as AA or KK and through a little 4th grade deductive reasoning you can conclude that AKs plays a lot better in multi way pots than AA-TT.

[/ QUOTE ]
Where do people get these nonsense information. If you're going all-in with 3 other players in the hand, you would want AKs instead of AA? Maybe you have some kind of bias against AA because your aces get cracked so many times by some stupid fish who doesn't know when to fold, but AA is the mother of all hands. It doesn't matter if you're all-in against one other person or a hundred. AA is always the best hand to have. (There are some rare exceptions. For example, if your opponent has KQ, your KK would have a slightly higher chance of winning than AA. But since there's no way to tell what your opponent has before you make your decision, there's no reason to want any other hand over AA)

[ QUOTE ]
AKs plays well with any number of players: with big multiway pots you can flop a flush draw and have a huge +EV situation

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, many people do not make +EV decisions with their flush draws. People tend to overvalue their flush draws thinking that they can call pot-sized bets because their implied odds will make up for their lack of pot odds. Yes, you can get paid off big time with your flush draws, but only against the right kind of opponents in the right position at the right time. Especially in tournaments where everyone is shortstacked, flush draws do not have that much value, in my opinion. To think that you can get a huge +EV situation everytime you get a flush draw (and I'm not saying that you think that way) is bad poker.

[ QUOTE ]
To clarify even more, when I refer to it playing well multiway I'm not talking about how often it wins at showdown in a multiway race situation, I'm referring to implied odds concepts.

[/ QUOTE ]
In PartyPoker SNGs where everyone starts off with 50xBB and blinds escalate very fast, your implied odds are shot to hell.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I didn't invent this statement myself, it comes from Sklansky.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, Sklansky talked about implied odds, but he played ring games with 200xBB stacks, not PartyPoker SNGs with 50xBB stacks.

[11t]

I just muck this and find a better spot. I hate pushing with AK early when I know I'm gonna get called, I only think it is +EV if you are going to get the pot without a showdown.

[11t]

At lower limits I think you are going to maximize your win-rate by folding here and picking spots later.

However I think this is at least a 55 so I don't necessarilly know.

[ImNotSoLucky]

I don't have a bias against AA for any reason - i understand that it is the ultimate best grand daddy play with my balls hand (whatever). In answer to your awfully hateful post though, 3 handed yes i would rather have AA - 5, 6, or 7 handed though - it's not going to hold up near as often though b/c you virtually are tied to trying to win with 1 pair and while i don't know the EXACT percentage (forgive me oh great one) one pair rarely holds up in pots that have 4+ players in them. Compare that to the numerous hands you can make with AKs and i think the point is made. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[donny5k]

AA fares better in an allin than AK regardless of the number of players except in VERY specific matchups.

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a bias against AA for any reason - i understand that it is the ultimate best grand daddy play with my balls hand (whatever). In answer to your awfully hateful post though, 3 handed yes i would rather have AA - 5, 6, or 7 handed though - it's not going to hold up near as often though b/c you virtually are tied to trying to win with 1 pair and while i don't know the EXACT percentage (forgive me oh great one) one pair rarely holds up in pots that have 4+ players in them. Compare that to the numerous hands you can make with AKs and i think the point is made. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your point isn't even close to being made:

AA against 5 opponents.

1 with any two broadway
1 with any two broadway
1 with any two broadway
1 with any pair
1 with any pair

AA: 44%
9%
9%
9%
14.5%
14.5%

AKs against same opponents:

AKs - 20%
12%
12%
12%
20%
20%

Your point sucks.

[donny5k]

I agree. Does my point suck? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ZBTHorton]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. Does my point suck? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm quite fond of your point. =)

[xcrack999]

[ QUOTE ]
3 handed yes i would rather have AA - 5, 6, or 7 handed though - it's not going to hold up near as often though b/c you virtually are tied to trying to win with 1 pair

[/ QUOTE ]
Duh. That's why you dont try to back your stack with unimproved AA with 7 other people seeing the flop. (Unless you're playing with 7 donks, then maybe) That's common sense. There's no rule that says you have to see the showdown everytime you get dealt AA. However, if you're saying that if there's 7 people ALL-IN preflop, you have a better chance of winning with AKs than AA, then you are very very wrong. If there are TEN PEOPLE all-in, and you have AA, you have about 30% chance of winning the hand, and if you have AKs, you have about 20% chance of winning the hand.

[ QUOTE ]
while i don't know the EXACT percentage (forgive me oh great one) one pair rarely holds up in pots that have 4+ players in them. Compare that to the numerous hands you can make with AKs and i think the point is made.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I'm going to have pull out some statistics (from the website http://www.pokerupdate.com/pokerodds.htm) for this because you seem to think that AKs has so much more potential of improving than AA. Ok here goes...
For AA, your chances of flopping...
a set - 10.8%
a fullhouse - 0.74%
quads - 0.25%
So the total chance of improvement is 11.79%. And remember when AA improves, it improves to a top-notch hand, and even if it does not improve, it's still better than TPTK.

For AKs, your chances of flopping...
two pair using both your hole cards - 2%
trips - 1.35%
a full house - 0.09%
quads - 0.01%
a flush - 0.84%
a straight - 1.3%
So the total chance of AKs improving to a hand better than TPTK is 5.59%, and some of these hands are so obvious to your opponents that they can make the correct decision against you. (For example, you raise pre-flop with AKs and the flop comes AAK. You think you'll get a lot of action here?)

Well, you can also say that AKs can flop a flush draw 10.9% of the time, and the draw will improve to a flush by river 35% of the times. Ok, but AA can flop a set 10.8% of the time, and the set will improve to a boat by river 33% of the time. In conclusion, you can see that AA has a greater potential to improve than AKs does. Also remember, AKs only flops TPTK 29% of the time, and the rest of the time when it doesn't flop a good draw or TPTK or better? (which happens on almost half the flops you see) Just a crappy ace high in a multiway pot.

Whoo... that took a while. Now to take a break. I apologize if my post sounded hateful because I did not mean it to sound that way at all. Just trying to start some discussion to get you thinking. (and get myself thinking as well)

[ImNotSoLucky]

fine, conceded --- [censored] me sideways. I think i was dreaming when that argument went through my head. &lt;Quietly tucks tail b/w legs and whimpers home&gt; Thank you sir may i have another /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[donny5k]

Why is 50 BB's such a small amount? The concepts I was talking about apply perfectly to a limit game where implied odds are much less. Also, the initial discussion was referring to playing AKs on the first blind level.

[clutch]

[ QUOTE ]
I just muck this and find a better spot. I hate pushing with AK early when I know I'm gonna get called, I only think it is +EV if you are going to get the pot without a showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

AKs after a raise and a reraise on lvl 2? I fold without giving it a second thought. You can find a better spot than this to get your chips in.

[ripped]

I fold it without a second thought.

[xcrack999]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is 50 BB's such a small amount? The concepts I was talking about apply perfectly to a limit game where implied odds are much less. Also, the initial discussion was referring to playing AKs on the first blind level.

[/ QUOTE ]
On PartyPoker, everyone starts with 800 chips, and the big blind is 15, so it's only about 50xBB. I'm not saying that the concept of implied odds does not apply to tournament with 50xBB structure. It's just that with 50 BBs, you have considerably less implied odds on your draws compared to ring games where people have 100 to 300 BBs.

[kyro]

SB probably figures now is the time to start bullying the table with his stack. Don't matter to me. With two people in, I don't feel like getting too frisky with AK. I fold.

[jadducci]

I think its obvious that AA is better than AK in all situations. However I think the point behind the idea it plays well multi handed is that when the hand is opended with a raise to say t100 and then 2-3 calllers I believe that calling with AK and not raising is the right move (hence the multi-way action) where as with AA KK and probably QQ you would most certaintly be re-raising depending on your read.

With AA you are trying to play HU usually where with AK an extra player or two would probably?? be +EV. This I would assume would only apply to a raised pot though.