how is position so important?

[greatwhite]

In this game position is suppose to be important. If it is that important how come there are no books that say how to play each hand in each position like Skalansky does in his other books. All I hear is general tips for starting hands. I am looking for advanced strategy. Someone please help me.

[grandgnu]

Position is important because you can either build a bigger pot, or drive people out/narrow the field.

If you have a hand like A/A/K/10 double-suited in Omaha hi/lo, you really want to narrow the field.

If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

If you're last to act with A/A/2/3 THEN you want to raise and build a bigger pot.

Also, some hands may be playable from if the pot is unraised and you're in late position (something like 9/10/J/Q) but if you're first to act it's best to dump this hand, since it will be hard for you to call any raises with this hand.

Good luck, hope this helps. Don't forget I now receive 15% of all your earnings, but assume none of your debts.

[stud7champ]

Position is amongst the top 3 issues in O8. both early and late position are important.
From early position you have to limp in with A2 and consider raising with A2 3-5. Your choice of options is less. However with orphan pots where everyone seems to be checking a raise shorthanded can win the pot.
In late position you have much more information for instance after the turn a check by an opponents often means the card has not helped them which allows you to raise to knock out more players or all players. conversely heavy action before you can indicate premium cards or an opponent hitting a key card allowing you to muck your weak hand or flat call or reraise your nut hand. There is nothing like having the low and straight with a redraw to the nut flush, being in late position and manipulating the size of the pot.
In late position with at least 3 callers you can raise with A2 and A2 3-5 to get more into the pot without losing too many players as they have already invested in the pot.
In a nut shell you play early postion less aggresively than late position. In late position you can also play more hands, even speculate hands such as 234X and A4 suited. provided there are no raises before you.

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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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You are risking the wrath of Ribbo.

[grandgnu]

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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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You are risking the wrath of Ribbo.

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Not quite sure what you mean? If I can get 5-7 people to limp in, that's fine with me, I don't want to push anyone out of the pot in this situation. If I'm in LP then I'll raise to build the pot, because most are going to invest the additional bet after limping in already.

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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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You are risking the wrath of Ribbo.

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Not quite sure what you mean? If I can get 5-7 people to limp in, that's fine with me, I don't want to push anyone out of the pot in this situation. If I'm in LP then I'll raise to build the pot, because most are going to invest the additional bet after limping in already.

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Search back for Ribbo's posts in response to the notion of limping with something like A-A-2-3 and you'll see what I mean.

[Mendacious]

Frankly, I think Omaha/8 position is less relevant than Hold-em. Also I think it is arguably less relevant in PL than in Limit Omaha/8. Stealing opportunities and continuation bets are much less a part of Omaha/8 than in Hold-em. PL08 is much more about nut hands, scoops and 3/4s heads up, than pot-building.

[Wintermute]

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Frankly, I think Omaha/8 position is less relevant than Hold-em.

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only in limit games, but you're partly right here.

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Also I think it is arguably less relevant in PL than in Limit Omaha/8.

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Couldn't be more wrong.

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Stealing opportunities and continuation bets are much less a part of Omaha/8 than in Hold-em.

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not true for PLO8. good players are aggressive on the flop with steal/continuation bets.

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PL08 is much more about nut hands, scoops and 3/4s heads up, than pot-building.

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wrong. position is critical in PLO8. Not as important as starting hands IMO, but still very important. For example, being in position is crucial when trying to get paid off with a good hand, build a pot, or determine your best preflop play, and being out of position is occasionally a blessing in that you can be the first to bluff into a board that misses everybody. These are just a couple of examples, but saying position isn't important in PLO8 is plain wrong.

[gergery]

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Frankly, I think Omaha/8 position is less relevant than Hold-em. Also I think it is arguably less relevant in PL than in Limit Omaha/8.

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Position will always be more important in games where you can bet larger amounts of people's stacks

--greg

[Mendacious]

I never said position was not important.
Clearly post flop position is quite important in how you play the hand.

As for whether it is more important in PL08 or Limit 08, I think there are a few factors to consider.
For pot building, I think position is more important in limit-- by far, for Pot stealing, I think position if more important in PL, but not by as much as you might think.

I'm curious Gergely and Wintermute, do you track winnings by position in Limit08 and PLO8, and if so, what do your stats tell you about how important position is? Over 25,000 hands, my PLO stats do not reflect that being on the button is much of an advantage-- as opposed to NL holdem where it is HUGE. But this might be more of a reflection on my play than anything else.

My experience is that at the limits up to $200 for PLO8, there are FAR fewer pre-flop raises than in Hold-em, so at least for me-- with a slightly >25 VPIP-- I see more hands at the SB and BB than an other seat.

Are your starting requirements THAT different by position in PL08?

[Wintermute]

excluding the blinds, my VPIP (min 23 , max 34), PFR(2,17), and win % (34,52) all go up with better position.

so, yes, starting hand requirements differ strongly w/ position, particularly with regard to raising

[templar999]

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Position will always be more important in games where you can bet larger amounts of people's stacks

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as well as large amounts relative to the pot size. dont mean to be insulting in any way, but if you're not doing better in late position relative to the early positions over a large number of hands not just in a PL game but in any game, you're simply not maximizing or using your position.

respectfully,
temp

[Mendacious]

You may be right about not maximizing postion, but my BB/100 for PL08 at 22,000 hands is over 20. So I'm hesitant to play much differently.

I am doing very slightly better from later position, with the exception of the BB which if you subtract the blind money out, is my best position by far.

[gergery]

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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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You are risking the wrath of Ribbo.

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I actually laughed out loud at this. well done.

[templar999]

mendacious,

again, wasn't commenting on your play at all, just an observation from the facts you posted.

geez, 20BB/100?? wow that's mighty impressive. is PLO8 really that much more profitable? i've assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that PLO8 is for those who have play O8 well and have high aggression levels. usually not opponents i'd like to face at any game. i guess it's a moot point since they never have it at a b&m.

respectfully,
temp

[gergery]

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I'm curious Gergely and Wintermute, do you track winnings by position in Limit08 and PLO8, and if so, what do your stats tell you about how important position is?

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I think position is most important in PL Omaha High only, then NL, then PLO8, then limit games. It's a big advantage. I don't have enough hands at PLO8 for meaningful winrate numbers by position, but my stats are close to Wintermute's

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VPIP (min 23 , max 34), PFR(2,17), and win % (34,52)

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Mine are VPIP (min, 25, max 33), PFR (3,14), win rates more jagged but higher with position. My numbers are full ring.

I'm at 17BB/100 at the $200 game so I'm happy with my results.

In Limit O8 where I have more hands, my number are a very smooth progression for VPIP, cold call, PFR, Win %, and $ won.

--Greg

[Mendacious]

Interesting-- I was going to posit that Wintermute was overvalueing position because he usually plays shorthanded rather than full ring, but I may have to just accept that I need to loosen up my late hand requirements and play more aggressively from the end.

Someone on UB told me her notes on me were included that I undervalue position (along with overplaying top trips). She may have been right on both counts, hard as that is to accept.

[Mendacious]

Not a problem Templar999, I was just stubbornly finding it hard to believe that I am wrong on this because my results have been so positive. (Classic mistake). But honestly, up to $100 and sometimes $200 tables, good PL08 players just kill the less experienced ones. (And I think it has a lot more to do with evaluating heads up than anything else).

[Wintermute]

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You may be right about not maximizing postion, but my BB/100 for PL08 at 22,000 hands is over 20.

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I'm curious, what levels & site do you achieve this win rate? Over 20 is awesome.

[Ribbo]

That's just filthy.
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Position is important because you can either build a bigger pot, or drive people out/narrow the field.

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Almost true. The true power of position is how other people percieve your bet at the table. If you have the button, it's checked around to you, and you hold A2 suited with a 468 suited on the board, you can bet the pot. Your bet is more likely to be seen as a bluff. If you make the same bet from under the gun, you are going to get more respect. So your value bets when you have position are more profitable. The information you gain from others is also key here. If you hold the nuts it's more likely someone will bet for you if you're on the button, than if you're in early position. Omaha is a game where usually you can't risk giving a free card, and if you have the nuts with position it's easier to make large bets and raises.
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If you have a hand like A/A/K/10 double-suited in Omaha hi/lo, you really want to narrow the field.

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No, you don't want to narrow the field, it's a profitable hand which gains from having more players in the pot, however you do want to raise for value.
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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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Again, not true. This depends entirely on what other hands you raise from early position. I will raise a large variety of hands including A35K from early to 3x if im first in the pot. I would raise AA23 to the same 3x bet if first in, as often people recognising this raise will call knowing it doesn't mean A2 automatically. Plus anyone who folds A2xx to a 3x raise preflop from any position is stupidly tight and deserves to lose.

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If you're last to act with A/A/2/3 THEN you want to raise and build a bigger pot.


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That's obvious, but this also applies to any position. If however you're in a game where they wont call your raises then you either need to raise more and steal pots, or leave the game and find a better one to play in.

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Also, some hands may be playable from if the pot is unraised and you're in late position (something like 9/10/J/Q) but if you're first to act it's best to dump this hand, since it will be hard for you to call any raises with this hand.

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9TJQ needs about 4 or 5 people in the pot to be worth a bet, however if it was suited, I would call a preflop raise with it in a pot limit O/8 game.
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Good luck, hope this helps.

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It will help him play worse, yes. The last thing he needs to become is another stiff tight predictable rock garden.

Wrath Over.

[grandgnu]

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That's just filthy.
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Position is important because you can either build a bigger pot, or drive people out/narrow the field.

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Almost true. The true power of position is how other people percieve your bet at the table. If you have the button, it's checked around to you, and you hold A2 suited with a 468 suited on the board, you can bet the pot. Your bet is more likely to be seen as a bluff. If you make the same bet from under the gun, you are going to get more respect. So your value bets when you have position are more profitable. The information you gain from others is also key here. If you hold the nuts it's more likely someone will bet for you if you're on the button, than if you're in early position. Omaha is a game where usually you can't risk giving a free card, and if you have the nuts with position it's easier to make large bets and raises.
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If you have a hand like A/A/K/10 double-suited in Omaha hi/lo, you really want to narrow the field.

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No, you don't want to narrow the field, it's a profitable hand which gains from having more players in the pot, however you do want to raise for value.
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If you have A/A/2/3 but you're first to act, raising is stupid, the more people in the pot, the better, so you just limp.

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Again, not true. This depends entirely on what other hands you raise from early position. I will raise a large variety of hands including A35K from early to 3x if im first in the pot. I would raise AA23 to the same 3x bet if first in, as often people recognising this raise will call knowing it doesn't mean A2 automatically. Plus anyone who folds A2xx to a 3x raise preflop from any position is stupidly tight and deserves to lose.

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If you're last to act with A/A/2/3 THEN you want to raise and build a bigger pot.


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That's obvious, but this also applies to any position. If however you're in a game where they wont call your raises then you either need to raise more and steal pots, or leave the game and find a better one to play in.

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Also, some hands may be playable from if the pot is unraised and you're in late position (something like 9/10/J/Q) but if you're first to act it's best to dump this hand, since it will be hard for you to call any raises with this hand.

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9TJQ needs about 4 or 5 people in the pot to be worth a bet, however if it was suited, I would call a preflop raise with it in a pot limit O/8 game.
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Good luck, hope this helps.

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It will help him play worse, yes. The last thing he needs to become is another stiff tight predictable rock garden.

Wrath Over.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was approaching this from a LIMIT Omaha 8 perspective, not pot limit.

Also, you are giving too much credit to the opponents most of us will be facing. I'm not sure what limits you're playing at, I started at the $.50/$1 and $1/$2 and have recently moved up to the $2/$4 and $3/$6 limits. The majority of my opponents are uber-donks that play this game like it's Hold 'Em.

Your advice may be more applicable for higher limits, but I still believe most of my advice was alright (although I concede the high-only hand narrowing of the field play, I was wrong there)

[Ribbo]

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I was approaching this from a LIMIT Omaha 8 perspective, not pot limit.

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Then how do you explain saying this?:
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Also, some hands may be playable from if the pot is unraised and you're in late position

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In a limit game, if you get dealt AA23 and you don't raise preflop from any position, then that's a lot of bets you've just lost. If you're in a game where people don't call preflop raises from early position, then you need to leave that game. After all, you just called the players at the table "donkeys" so why exactly are you worried about them not coming in the pot? Makes no sense. You get dealt premium AA2 hands very very rarely, not raising them is just bad, it should be a crime. If I raise preflop and people put me on AA2 then yes, they are terrible, but if I do have AA2 each time, there is no way I will be winning at omaha/8

[grandgnu]

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Then how do you explain saying this?:
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Also, some hands may be playable from if the pot is unraised and you're in late position

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A hand like 2/3/4/5 or 2/3/4/6, etc. may be playable from last position in an unraised pot, while it's something I wouldn't want to limp with from first position.

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In a limit game, if you get dealt AA23 and you don't raise preflop from any position, then that's a lot of bets you've just lost. If you're in a game where people don't call preflop raises from early position, then you need to leave that game. After all, you just called the players at the table "donkeys" so why exactly are you worried about them not coming in the pot? Makes no sense. You get dealt premium AA2 hands very very rarely, not raising them is just bad, it should be a crime. If I raise preflop and people put me on AA2 then yes, they are terrible, but if I do have AA2 each time, there is no way I will be winning at omaha/8

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The games I typically play are profitable because people will play hands like 4/4/9/K, etc. But not enough of them will play such a hand against an early position raise. They WILL call you if they've already put their one bet into the pot and you are acting after them in late position.

[Mendacious]

All Party skins, primarily, but I have a significant number of hands at UB, PokerStars and Paradise. 50% of the hands are at $25 PLO8 tables, but BB/100 is better at the $100 tables for me. But I still feel comfortable at the smaller limits, especially when I am killing bonus.