A Question of Etiquette

[The Dude]

Bear in mind that pinochle is a gentlemen's game. The dealer doesn't ask the person to his right to cut, and cards are dealt three at a time - there is no suspicion of cheating in this game. Like I said, it's a gentlemen's game.

Since everybody in my group organizes their cards similarly in their hands, by paying attention to where in their hand they pull out a certain card, I can gain information about what the rest of their hand looks like. Among the information I can gain is how many cards of a certain suit somebody has, which suit somebody is likely keeping a loser in, and some others. Is it crossing the lines of etiquette to use those visual queues? In any other card game I wouldn't think twice, but I do appreciate the relaxed nature of pinochle and don't want to cross a boundry here. Also, it takes a good amount of effort on my part to notice these things, so there is virtually no chance of me "accidentally" noticing this.

What do you guys think?

[2+2 wannabe]

i don't think so - it's being strategic

it's like if you're playing coughpokercough and someone seems to like the river card - you don't disregard that info

it's a thinking game - think

[nothumb]

No problem with playing this way from an ethical standpoint. If people start to notice that you always seem to go for the jugular, and resent it, you might lighten up. Or if they no longer enjoy playing and you want to keep the game going. However simply playing well is not poor etiquette.

NT

[fluxrad]

I think this is acceptable. You are not cheating if the information is freely available to anyone else who may or may not choose to use it.

[[censored]]

There is nothing inherently unethical about it but as you used in your post it really comes down to etiquette. That is, based on your knowledge of the these players and the tone of the game, how would the other players feel if they knew you were doing this?

If they would be bothered and feel that is was against the spirit of the game than I think etiquette would call for you to stop.

all that being said, I would probably just do it as I enjoy using my brain to the fullest extent possible.

[goofball]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is acceptable. You are not cheating if the information is freely available to anyone else who may or may not choose to use it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

As nothumb pointed out though, if one of the things you like about the game is that it's friendly you it may be best to choose to not use one of these strategic options. Something akin to not checkraising the new guy in your buddy's $.05/$.10 limit home game.

[mslif]

Fine by me. The game itself is about strategy and ability to out smart and read into your oponents' game. As far I am concerned, you are just using your abilities to win a game. Nothing wrong with that at all.

[miajag81]

[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind that pinochle is an 85-year-old gentlemen's game.

[/ QUOTE ]

fyp

[[censored]]

to use an example you are familar with look at pokertracker + gt.

When playing on a poker site, where you everyone is trying to maximize the amount won using these tools are fine even if the other players are unaware.

However let's say for whatever reason you and friends (who do not play seriously) were to set up a "home game" but over the internet. The purpose of said game was for friendly competition and to test yourselves against each other but still involved real money. If you were to use PT+GT without them being aware of it, I would consider this be against the etiquette of the game. Even though you are still playing poker as above.

[schwza]

i think it's unethical to use that kind of info from your partner's play, but ok from opponents.

[Blarg]

I don't think this is an ethical problem. You are expected to play your best, in order to keep the game an entertaining challenge for others. Concerns about the ethics of playing with what information you're given are more appropriate when the information given is not taken in the spirit of fair play, as when someone flashes their cards and you always make sure to look instead of warning them they're doing it, or even scoot your chair back or lean back and otherwise go well out of your way to take advantage. Something like that isn't gentlemanly and isn't worth speaking well of. But simply being observant in a normal fashion is fine.

[The Dude]

Okay guys, just to clarify. I have no problem with it from an ethics standpoint. Like many of you have mentioned, it's just using information that other people are willing to give me. However, I don't know if it breaks pinochle etiquette. I'm hoping there's somebody else on this board that plays a decent amount of pinochle that can chip in.

[samjjones]

Not related to the OP, but would like to seek opinions. Played in a friendly 10 person $20 freezeout this weekend. Playing my normal 12 beer "tight" game, I raise in the big blind with Q9o. Flop comes J-10-8. Turn is an 8, river is a rag. I check-call until river, when I put in a pot sized raise, which is called. Upon being called, I ask "Do you have a pair", and the person says "Two pairs. Aces up" and flips over their pocket aces. Without speaking, I table the nut straight, and then everybody starts yelling at me. Was the "Do you have a pair" remark out of line? I think I liked being the a-hole at the table, btw.

[The Dude]

Yes, it was out of line. Letting somebody else table their cards before you, or giving the impression that your hand is not as good as it is in order to get others to show theirs is known as "slowrolling," and is very poor etiquette. Don't ever do that again.

[TheWorstPlayer]

It's fine. That's why I never organize my hand in Bridge. Fine, if I misread my hand it sucks for me, but I just have learned to be accurate reading my hand unorganised. Better than giving off cues about your hand. When being lazy I pseudo organize it (by suit only, not number) so as not to give off cues when taking cards out of the hand. I think these things are totally fair game. But ultimately what matters if what the people with whom you are playing think. And whether or not you get caught. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Edit: OK, now I read the thread and wanted to add that certainly this is cheating if you are gaining info about your partner's hand. Also, it might simply be worthwhile to say "you know, when you guys organize your hands so strictly, your opponents can see when you are short suited by where you pick your card from. You should think about organizing your hand by suit but not by number to make it harder to gain that information (since you're not always taking the lowest card from the end)."

[nothumb]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, it was out of line. Letting somebody else table their cards before you, or giving the impression that your hand is not as good as it is in order to get others to show theirs is known as "slowrolling," and is very poor etiquette. Don't ever do that again.

[/ QUOTE ]

But more importantly, you broke the two cardinal rules of OOT -

1. Poker content BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD

2. Hijacking a respected poster's thread because you doubt anybody will read yours

Shame!

NT

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
it might simply be worthwhile to say "you know, when you guys organize your hands so strictly...

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, for obvious reasons I'm trying to work this out without saying anything to them. They'll take conscious efforts to disguise that if they know I'm looking.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it might simply be worthwhile to say "you know, when you guys organize your hands so strictly...

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, for obvious reasons I'm trying to work this out without saying anything to them. They'll take conscious efforts to disguise that if they know I'm looking.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind that pinochle is a gentlemen's game.

[/ QUOTE ] It also sounds like you routinely play with the same people. So you're probably friendly with them. Why don't you just be a nice guy and mention this fact to them? Then they will be better players when they play against other people and they will also think that you are a nice, sharp, guy instead of The Sneaky Dude? As I said initially, I don't think it is unfair or unethical. But I think you could go above and beyond what is required in order to be gentlemanly in a gentleman's game.

[Bluffoon]

I play a little rummy and I use this tactic. I also mix up how I hold my cards so my opponents cant easily use it on me.

It is information freely available to everyone and not even close to cheating.

Carry on.

[Tyler Durden]

Now a question of etiquette, as I pass do I give you the ass or the crotch?

[stripsqueez]

i dont play pinochle but i think it probably is unethical

the ethics of poker are vastly different from the ethics of other card games - its reasonable for this to be the case because poker has a large component that is lying and the ethics of poker have simply evolved to allow more of an anything goes approach

in bridge what you describe is called slotting - i think its akin to seeing your opponents cards in the sense that it is receiving information that your not supposed to have - its acceptable in bridge to observe that an opponent behaves or looks a certain way and draw conclusions from that but knowing what he/she has as a result of what i might call a mechanical flaw isnt

that said i regularly see peoples cards in bridge and i often know how many cards they have in a suit via the same method you describe - i cant help it - i'm always watching what they are doing which isnt unethical - i solve this dilema by telling them - after i have told them the second time i explain that i'm not going to tell them again

stripsqueez - chickenhawk