Pokertracker, Party Poker, HUDs, and leveling the playing field

[flair1239]

The simple solution for party, instead of thinking of "banning" profiling software and HUDs, is to embrace them.

I propose that PP should contract with PT or develope their own version complete with HUD and give it to their members in their software package. Players should still have the option to use their own programs.

Recreational players would think that it was fun, and would probably play more, just to gather stats. It would add value to PTY and be a bold step by an industry leader.

Fighting these programs is stupid and counter productive. I agree that people should not have access to Hand Histories for hands that they were not involved in, but this would be a simple matter to rectify.

As far as third PArty marketing of hand histories, I am sure some copy write protection could be given to the histories and offenders could be vigourously pursued.

[ctv1116]

uh no. do you see why? i'll let others elaborate.

[flair1239]

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uh no. do you see why? i'll let others elaborate.

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No I don't see why. Please elaborate yourself.

[Nathan183]

What a useless response.

I personally don't see any glaring problems with OP's idea, although I'm not sure I agree with it.

[Synergistic Explosions]

Party should just allow players to change their screen name at will. Several times a day if we wish. That would solve any problem someone might have with this type of software.

[d10]

Anything that could help convince bad players that they are in fact bad will hurt the game. In fact, if the only thing Party did was offered a window that displayed net winnings/losses over a player's entire career, a lot of fish would either stop playing or begin to study the game. Also the only bad players who would really enjoy seeing all those stats are the math junkies. The other recreational players would just become upset that they're now either forced to analyze numbers that in their minds shouldn't be a part of the game (particularly true for the tons of players who feel that instinct determines how much money you make, being able to tell who's bluffing and who's not, and of course most of these players believe their instincts are better because they caught player A bluffing one time) or be forced to play at a disadvantage.

The fact is most poker players are no different from other losing gamblers. They're in denial about how much they lose by playing, and it's this denial that fuels the gambling industry. Forcing these players into reality wouldn't be good for Party, and it wouldn't be good for the winning player.

[tribefan9]

The reason why we do not want everyone using these programs is that they would easily allow the fish to see how much money they are losing. We would much rather have the fish think that they are break-even or winning players since sometimes they double their deposit and sometimes they lose it. If they knew exactly how much they were losing many of them would quit or learn to play better.

[Mendacious]

Handtrackers generally encourage tighter play (except for those who already play tight enough). Why would Party want to encourage play which generates less rake per hand? It runs completely counter to their interests.

Moreover, these programs require a database-- and in turn much greater resource usage on your computer and support. Not to mention I doubt Party would want to become responsible for any of the data which people rely on in making their decisions.

IN SHORT...NO!!!

[Rudbaeck]

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Party should just allow players to change their screen name at will.

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[jackdaniels]

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Party should just allow players to change their screen name at will.

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Is there any real reason why this is not currently allowed? Something to do with cheating or merely an attempt to allow "player profiling" by those observant enough to follow the game and take notes (kind of like you would do in a live game - where people cannopt hide behind a new identity and are forced to play with their "reputation" preceding them).

If it is the former, then I'm not sure what the solution is. If the latter, then simply eliminating the writing of observed HH to the local drive might do it. I see nothing wrong with mining data on hands/games one actually participated in.

[KingMarc]

The reason is due to cheating or collusion. If player A and player B always play together, and collude..it will be a lot harder for Party to discover and prove this if Player B becomes Player C, D, etc. everytime they play.

[IggyWH]

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The reason is due to cheating or collusion. If player A and player B always play together, and collude..it will be a lot harder for Party to discover and prove this if Player B becomes Player C, D, etc. everytime they play.

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I would assume like any other database, Party does not know us by our handles, we are all just a # to them. So changing your handle would not change where you are at in their database.

It also wouldn't be hard to log name changes.

[TylerD]

True, but that would mean Party would have to spot the colluders alone without help from players.

[StellarWind]

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As far as third PArty marketing of hand histories, I am sure some copy write protection could be given to the histories and offenders could be vigourously pursued.

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This won't work. Information such as a recounting of how a poker hand was played cannot be copyrighted. Party might be able to copyright their HH format but they cannot prevent a third party from repackaging the data in their own format.

Consider for example that the score (list of moves made) of a chess game cannot be copyrighted. People copy and republish large numbers of chess games from other books all the time.

Not to mention the irony of a business that sells services over the internet from an offshore haven trying to vigorously pursue legal remedies against fly-by-night businesses doing exactly the same thing. Completely impractical for Party even if the applicable law was 100% on their side.

[StellarWind]

Poker is supposed to be fun.

Heads up displays, widely available stats that show what an idiot you are, and daily name changes are not fun for normal poker players.

We geeks need to remember that the rest of society does not love our geeky toys. Failure of engineers and software people to get this is a leading cause of gadgets with unwanted features.

Fortunately, as dumb as Party sometimes seems to be, I don't think they are dumb in this particular way.

[Rudbaeck]

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The reason is due to cheating or collusion. If player A and player B always play together, and collude..it will be a lot harder for Party to discover and prove this if Player B becomes Player C, D, etc. everytime they play.

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I would assume like any other database, Party does not know us by our handles, we are all just a # to them. So changing your handle would not change where you are at in their database.

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I think Party's sole collusion detection system is other players sending in complaints. So that is a valid issue. (After you complain someone checks it out. If you're lucky.)

[Guthrie]

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As far as third PArty marketing of hand histories, I am sure some copy write protection could be given to the histories and offenders could be vigourously pursued.

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I assume you mean copyright protection. If the combined legal and financial resources of the entire motion picture and recording industry are powerless to stop the rampant theft of their clearly copyrighted intellectual property, how is one poker site in Gibraltar going to enforce theirs?

Oh yeah, it's also a terrible idea.

[ckessel]

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uh no. do you see why? i'll let others elaborate.

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Uh, yes. do you see why? I'll let others elaborate.

[ckessel]

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Anything that could help convince bad players that they are in fact bad will hurt the game. In fact, if the only thing Party did was offered a window that displayed net winnings/losses over a player's entire career, a lot of fish would either stop playing or begin to study the game.

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Gee, Pokerroom already has that /images/graemlins/smile.gif And gaming club too I think. Still fish on those.

[ckessel]

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Recreational players would think that it was fun, and would probably play more, just to gather stats.

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I don't know about a full on HUD, but more stats on their own play would be fine. Some sites already offer it and I can't say as I've noticed the play any less fishy because of it (just smaller sites in general so it's a bit tougher).

You have to remember the mental mindset of fish. If they know they suck and are there to goof off for a couple hours, they don't care about the stats. They probably don't care other people have stats.

If they think they've got natural talent, they won't care what the stats say as it doesn't mesh with what "they know to be the truth". The stats will just reinforce their view that they're on a bad streak, not that they suck.

I've seen lots of semi-fish with 35% VPIP talk about how they're winning because "they don't play many hands, just the good ones". Stats are just going to show them what they already believe, they they're being selective, so any losses are just bad luck.

[flair1239]

For you people who are worried about alerting the fish to the fact that they are losing players, would not having to reload their accounts on a weekly or monthly basis already be demonstrating to them that they are losing players?

[Subby]

How hard would it be to get rid of observed hand histories? Seems like that would eliminate a lot the problem right there... (yes I datamine).

[ElSapo]

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Party should just allow players to change their screen name at will. Several times a day if we wish. That would solve any problem someone might have with this type of software.

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The problem with this, is knowing that you should.

Tell recreational players "there are a whole bunch of folks who play professionally or semi-professionally, running database programs, collecting all your stats and trying to take your money as quickly as possible. Change your name often."

I don't think you'll have recreational players changing their name often - I think you'll see them not playing as much. The instant response would be "this shouldn't be allowed."

ElSapo

[MentalNomad]

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I think Party's sole collusion detection system is other players sending in complaints. So that is a valid issue. (After you complain someone checks it out. If you're lucky.)

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That's not correct. . . there is automation in place (which occasionally generates a false positive.)

[Uglyowl]

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Party should just allow players to change their screen name at will. Several times a day if we wish. That would solve any problem someone might have with this type of software.

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The problem with this, is knowing that you should.

Tell recreational players "there are a whole bunch of folks who play professionally or semi-professionally, running database programs, collecting all your stats and trying to take your money as quickly as possible. Change your name often."

I don't think you'll have recreational players changing their name often - I think you'll see them not playing as much. The instant response would be "this shouldn't be allowed."

ElSapo

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I don't think this would scream anything. How many times you think people get sick of their screennames and maybe want to change it to the flavor of the day.

[smartalecc5]

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Party should just allow players to change their screen name at will. Several times a day if we wish. That would solve any problem someone might have with this type of software.

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My name would become kj43l5d after the first week.

[Greg J]

Good idea!

"But it would make the fish better players, and they would be tougher to beat!"

No. Most people would not understand how to use the software in such a way as to improve thier games. The mentality of the recreational player is such that he already thinks he is good. They would be proud of thier 50+ vpip scores. "That is my style. I like to see a lot of flops. Maybe I should try to get that up to at least 60." And what about reads on players with <20 vpip? "They fold too much. You can't win by folding!."

It really amazes me that there are so many (supposedly) winning players here that fundamentally misunderstand the mindset of the average recreational player (ie fish, donk, or whatever). If people want to get better at poker they will get better. They will find PT, and GT/PV. They will post about hands, and read poker books, eventually (if they are serious enough), settling on the high quality stuff (SuperSystem and 2p2 books). Most either don't really care, like to just play cards, or delude themselves into thinking they are good.

Oh, let's not forget the many people who would just ignore the programs anyhow. "I rock at poker. I watch the WPT! I don't need no computer telling me I can play. I know I'm good!"

[TemetNosce]

Best post ever in regards to this subject. You hit it right on the head, Greg.

[Cosimo]

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For you people who are worried about alerting the fish to the fact that they are losing players, would not having to reload their accounts on a weekly or monthly basis already be demonstrating to them that they are losing players?

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All they need to do is withdraw ONCE and they can rationalize away losses. Maybe they don't even need to withdraw.

Some fish will blame their losses on the rake (as absurdly low as it is, compared to rake and tips at B&M), others will remember that time they had a bunch but then lost it all when they moved up in stakes, etc etc.

Never underestimate the ability for a degenerate gambler to rationalize his losses.

That said, any tool that reminds them of their losses is that much more likely to push a few more players to learn about the game. I don't think the sites should incorporate stats into their own UIs.