A question about slow playing

[Schmed]

I have read in an article by David Sklansky that one of the biggest mistakes that players make is slow playing too many hands. I did it last night in a couple of situations and while it worked out very well for me I wonder how smart the play was.

I was in a the small blind of 1-4-8-8 hold'm. I had 4,5 suited. I limped in for no extra bet with 5 other players. The flop came 7,5,5. My initial thought was to bet but I was early and I wanted to see what kind of action I was getting, (fearful of someone limping in with a pair of 7's). One person raised, (the same guy who had been raising everything all the time all night and the same guy that was called down trying to steal once). I called his raise. The 4 came on the turn. I had the boat and I know in Hold'm the boat is huge but still I was fearful of the boat 7's over. I did bet 8 everyone folded but the initial raiser who called. When he called me I knew he didn't have it. River came k, I bet 8 thinking he didn't raise preflop so I doubt he had a king, I put him on more of a mid to low pair or connector. I took down the pot as all he had was two pair,(7's and 4's I think).

Was I wrong not to raise after the flop with trips?

I don't mean to make this too long but there was another situation as well.

I was in the big blind and I limped in with Q,9 unsuited with 6 other players. The flop came 6,9,Q. I had top two pair but I checked. The same guy as above bet. I called as did two other players. The next card came a Q I checked, the same guy raised, I check raised him, everyone else out, he came back all in for I think another 3 I called. Next card came a 2. He had A Q I had the boat.

I figure in this situation I was wrong not betting or at the very least check raising the top two pair. My thoughts were two-fold. I didn't want to bet from the early position because I wanted to see if there was a set out there and I knew it wouldn't make it around the table without at least one bet. My other thought was if I check raised I would only make 4 more dollars as everyone except the one guy would have folded. When the queen came I knew that the one guy that was left would stay and bet so I figured from the early position going for a check raise was the call. I guess my mistake here, even though it worked out, was not blowing him and everyone else out early so that didn't draw out on me.

I appreciate any thoughts on these two slow plays that I did.

[sucka]

Bet the flop. You don't have an overcard so if indeed you are playing against someone who's got pocket 7's you are drawing dead - unless of course, you hit a 1 outer and a 5 pops up.

If indeed he is full on the flop he's not going to put too much pressure on you just yet - at least, not if he knows even a smidgen of how to play this game. If you get raised on the flop I'd definitely check-raise on the turn when your magic 4 appears.

Don't play so weak-tight and stick your lone loose-aggressive opponent on hands that beat you or have you dominated. He probably has a pocket pair bigger than 7's and is trying to figure out where he is in the hand - in addition to getting some $$ in the pot figuring he has the best of it here. He can be sure if he gets check-raised or raised on the turn that he's probably behind to a 5 and now if he indeed is holding an overpair he's looking at a 2 outer to win the hand.

The short of it is - this is not a hand to slowplay and give free cards away to your opponents. Take advantage of his aggressiveness and get more money into the pot.

It's probably marginal between re-raising the flop and just calling. You didn't make a bad decision to just call but given the fact that he calls you all the way down it makes you rethink your decision to not pop it for one more on the flop. Your call on the flop was fine - I probably wouldn't have re-raised either as I think a 3 bet here pretty much gives your hand away. I'd save it for a check raise on the turn. How could he think that that ugly 4 helped you? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

As for the second hand...

You don't really give enough information here as far as position goes so I'll just guess on a couple things...

I would bet the flop here. Against 6 you are guaranteed to get many callers - particular those playing hands like QJ or JT who are tied to their draws - you don't mention any flush draws but presumably someone may have middle pair with an Ace overcard and a runner flush chance or something. You are going to get people to peel one more off anyway on the cheap street - so you might as well get your bet in there early and hope that someoneone raises it up for you and gets you a few cold callers. Always be thinking about how to get money into the pot - NOT trying to disguise your hand all the time. An early bet by you doesn't throw a flag up that you have top 2 pair. Get the money in the pot while you have the best of it and hope you get someone to play back at you.

Now, without knowing position and such it seems like your check raise on the turn was a really bad move. Did your checkraise here limit the field on you? If so, why on earth would you do that? Why would you not want lessor hands to call in this situation. It's nearly impossible that anyone at the table has a better hand than you (only thing that beats you here is someone holding pocket Q's). Let them call - don't run them out of the pot.

Your closing thoughts show some very fuzzy thinking on your part.

"I didn't want to bet from the early position because I wanted to see if there was a set out there and I knew it wouldn't make it around the table without at least one bet."

What on earth does that mean? So, if you check and one person bets that means they have a set? Why do you always put someone else on a better hand before you even give them a chance to say anything about it. BET here - there is a very good chance you have the best hand in this spot. Even if you don't you still have outs to make a better hand so BET YOUR DAMN HAND AND HOPE THAT PEOPLE CALL OR RAISE. Not only does your bet do more to define your hand but it allows you to get a better read on what your other opponents might be playing. Simply check calling all the time will get you lost and you will have no idea where you stand.

I guess my mistake here, even though it worked out, was not blowing him and everyone else out early so that didn't draw out on me.

What???? Don't you realize that YOU have a pretty damn strong draw yourself here? Not to mention that there's a really good chance you have the best hand here? Your AQ friend is drawing to 3 outs to beat you while you have 4 to get even bigger.

Don't be so passive - get aggressive when you flop hands like this - they don't happen all that often. Bet, raise, define your hand, work on reading your opponents - and not just sticking them on one of 2 or 3 hands that beats you everytime.

[Schmed]

First of all thanks very much for your feedback. A little background on me. Like most people I started playing poker in a game with friends on Monday nights. It's very low stakes and a lot of crazy games are played with a lot of wild cards, (357, in between, pots get up to like maybe 70). I was introduced to Omaha and Hold'm there. One of my friends is an excellent card player and had been playing casino poker and tournaments for 5 or so years. He's took me to the Casino once told me to buy Hold'm for advanced players and read it before I played there again. I took his advice and did a bunch more research on the topic, (ie bought TTH for my computer, read a bunch of articles online). This was my 6th time playing at the casino so sometimes I think my mind still isn't operating fast enough on the exact right thing to do. Better said I think I am just not processing the information right yet. I know I shouldn't get all hung up on results but I have faired pretty well,(won a little bit over a hundred last night, won a little over 30 the last time, lost 20,60, 20, 40 the other times. My playing time is averaging around 6 hours.)

As for the hands in question.

I think both times I kind of realized that I messed up after it was too late. Like you said I shouldn't have been thinking about the couple of hands that could have beaten me when I had the best hand sitting there.

The second hand I was in the big blind. I was in such an early position that my thinking was I wanted to see what was out there. Honeslty too I had a brain lock at the time and right after the words "check" came out of my mouth the word "you idiot" went in to my head /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Really thanks again. I really appreciate you taking the time to give me the feedback. I have had so much fun playing cards in the casino and I think it's a game I can beat on some level.

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
while it worked out very well for me

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure it worked out well at all. While you did end up winning the hands, I bet you could have gotten a lot more money in the pots.

Hand 1 - bet on the flop. You have trips, but you could be up against many draws. People will call here with overcards, 89, 86, 34 - basically lots of crap. Might as well make them pay to draw out on you. If you bet and get raised, you should 3-bet if the raise came from late position - the raiser could just be looking for a free card on his draw. If the raise comes from early position, he most likely has a 7 or an overpair. I'd call the raise and then try to check-raise the turn.

On the turn I can't say if you should try for the checkraise or just bet out - it's hard to say since you didn't tell us where the flop bettor was and where the callers were.

Hand 2: bet the flop. You have top 2 pair, but there are lots of draws that could be out there. If you get raised, you should 3-bet.

If the bettor/raiser was in late position, a turn checkraise was poor - you made everyone call 2 big bets cold so they all folded. They've got almost no chance to draw out on you, so let them call 1 bet on the turn. Then on the river you should bet out.

Here's a simple rule to follow for deciding when to slowplay:

Don't /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[sucka]

Agreed. Reserve the slowplaying in the LL games for when you flop the absolute nuts - ala; quads or something like Aces full of Kings, etc... In those cases you aren't going to get much action so hopefully the turn will put a Q or J or something up there and get something going that people will latch on to and make you some money on your monster.

Slowplaying a good but extremely vulnerable hand is just bad poker. The people that get spanked doing this all the time are the ones that you hear incessantly bitching about how people suck out on them. You can't accuse someone of sucking out on you when you give them a bunch of free cards.

Anyway, at least you recognize that you made a few bad plays here. I'm sure others will elaborate on the hands as well.

What it comes down to is you sit at the table for hours waiting to get flops like these. Put money in the pot for the love of god. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Louie Landale]

You've got a much bigger problem then figuring out when to slow play... You have flopped real strong hands, yet remain "fearful", "fearful", "doubt", "see if a set was out", ...

Its a relative disaster to keep looking for ways you can lose these hands. For one thing, it really doesn't matter since you have every reason to believe you are going to show down the hand: your fearfullness does NOT affect your chances of winning. If you keep looking you will [1] lose lots of bets because you chickened out [2] lay down winners because it "looks" like you were beat.

When you flop big you will usually win, and "usually" is plenty of justification to build a big pot. Without counting and proving EV, isn't it intuitively obvious that you are better off "usually" winning a big pot and "sometimes" losing a big pot, then "usually" winning a medium pot and "sometimes" losing a medium pot?

Another aspect is this: when you flop big, nobody who is lagitimately drawing to beat you is going to fold. The only players that will fold are those who are NOT getting the right odds to call. Generally, then, you WANT these players to call a single bet or two; but you also do NOT want to give them a free card.

With a big hand, you generally want to give the opponents as many opportunities to incorrectly call single bets. Generally keep betting or raising on later rounds until its obvious you are beat, then pay it off.

With a big hand you WANT to maximize your opponent's investment. Yes, that means that sometimes you will bet and raise when beat, but so what.

Having said that, lets look at one aspect of these big hands. The aggressive opponent is on your right but you are in the blinds. Checking will usually mean HE will bet, and now if you raise you will drive out the callers. You should therefore be more inclined .. much more inclined to bet out (from the blinds) then if THIS player were on your left.

- Louie

[Ed Miller]

Good luck to you... once you get more experience playing, you will definitely get the hang of it and know what kinds of hands to expect when you see certain flops. In both your hands, you were way too fearful of big hands.

In general... in Holdem... if you flop trips or two pair like you did in these cases, you should assume you have the best hand until someone really shows you otherwise by showing lots of aggression (one raise is not enough). Once you fill up on each of these hands, you should just plain not be worried anymore... every once in a blue moon someone will show down a monster that cracks your big hand... and you will lose a grand total of $16 or so more bucks than you would have lost had you played scared and check-called. In all the other circumstances, you will be making that extra $16 and so you will come out way ahead in the long run if you put in those extra raises.

I think it's a psychological hurdle that people have to get over... for some people, putting in a lot of money with the losing hand is embarrassing... makes them feel stupid and inadequate. Nothing should be further from your mind. It's a fact of poker that occasionally you will put in lots of money drawing dead or as an enormous underdog to a longshot hand. Sometimes people will make fun of you even... or say something snide intended to make you feel stupid. People do it to me all the time... I play aggressively, and sometimes I will raise the turn on as little as second pair. Many players will slow down with hands as strong as a set and just call me down. Then when I show my monster.. hehe.. they show theirs and say something snide like, "thanks for raising my hand for me, buddy." They say this stuff because they feel dumb for letting my aggression intimidate them... so they make fun of my "stupid" play. I actually get this all the time... people who don't understand the game criticize me for playing too aggressively. In any event (I've gotten off topic a little here)... try to avoid having any negative emotional reaction at all to a poker hand... fear, embarrassment, anger, frustration. People make millions of dollars of mistakes every day by playing their hands under the influence of negative emotions.

[Schmed]

I think what happens to me sometimes in these half and half games is my Omaha guard is up while I'm playing Hold'm. I know I play a little too passive at times and it is something that I always think about right after I say the dreaded word..... "check".....

You're right on the money though about that psychological hurdle. It's something that I think with a little bit more time at the table I'll get over.

Thanks to all that responded. All of the input is great and greatly appreciated. It's one thing to read and study it in the books. Not knowing it cold it's another thing to execute. Walking away from the poker room I kind of go over what I thought my mistakes were that night. It's really great to be able to come in here and put them up for people that know the game a lot better than me to comment on. It reinforces the right play.

Thanks again.

[bernie]

"Slowplaying a good but extremely vulnerable hand is just bad poker."

this isnt totally true at all....and ive made/saved alot of chips in certain situations in LL games by waiting for the turn...

there are times to slowplay to let players try and catch 2nd best hands...this is the one everyone thinks of...you HAVE to have only the nuts to do it....bull.

there are times to do it to make a more tactical spot to put in a bet cutting odds and letting others make mistakes for calling....everyone seems to shun and ignore this one....and lose chips in the process. even when they bet every street, sometimes they couldve made much more...

sometimes, betting out on a flop with many callers isnt protecting anything. and sure isnt going to cause them to make a mistake when they call if the pot is big enough. but you just helped them gain odds to call the turn now...

position helps here....this tactic is more useful in a later position, but if you have an aggressive guy on your right, LP, you can check into him also...

saying the blanket statement above is ignoring some very tactical and valid plays. especially in a LL game. yes, the free card may make their hand. but theyd call anyway with a decent draw, so it may also save you a bet.

funny how many seem to think that by betting every round that THATs whats going to charge the most. in some cases, it isnt. some cases, you miss an extra sb from everyone on the turn.

now the flopped trips hand, i would bet out. not to charge the draws per se, but because many wont put me on it. and if someone makes their hand on the turn, i have a redraw that im also building. but that bet, with 5+ players that saw the flop isnt going to scare, nor really charge anyone whos drawing.

flopping quads? ever bet out on it and get raised? great feeling. most wont bet quads, so again, they probably wont put you on it. nice alteration play....

im not saying to slowplay all the time at all....but recognize the times and reasons to do it beyond just a false sense of protecting one's hand...

b

[sucka]

sometimes, betting out on a flop with many callers isnt protecting anything. and sure isnt going to cause them to make a mistake when they call if the pot is big enough. but you just helped them gain odds to call the turn now...

When you flop a big hand in the blinds against 5+ players, as in this example, i feel you have to bet because you have the best hand and you want to get money in the pot. I think that it's playing way to weak to not bet on the flop in his top 2 pair hand as well. Worse hands will call - some that are drawing dead to you. Why would you not want them to call an additional flop bet and have outs to draw dead against you for the rest of the hand?

For me - particularly in LL loose games I'm betting on the flop on both of these hands nearly 100% of the time.

[bernie]

my reply was in regards to your statement that it is wrong to slowplay anytime unless you have a near nut hand....you didnt specify positional exceptions or anything. many wrongly think you have to bet the flop regardless of position to 'protect' their hand. or to charge the draws the max....which it doesnt in certain situations....they act as if that flop bet will magically make the turn card come in their favor...the turn is coming no matter what, and any decent draw will be there....it really doesnt matter if someone will make a mistake calling a 2 outer when you may have 15+ out against you anyways....

there's also a possible open ender on the 2 pair hand, though he doesnt mention the flush texture

i would likely bet out on both hands....unless on the 2 pair hand an aggressive post flop player is to my right...i may check it to him...

they may also not be drawing dead to you....you could still have over 10 outs possible to beat you add more if the flush draw is there....and they all have odds to call a single bet. and theyll have odds to call the turn bet after that when they all call...

again, i was pointing out that there are other reasons to slowplay other than letting someone catch up. there are reasons for protective purposes...

nothing wrong with betting out, id likely do it in both cases. but be aware of other viable options available....should certain situations arise. many seem to stop reading HPFAP at pg 150.....(not saying you, but ive seen many posters who have a black and white take on hands where it's a gray area)

the most dangerous 2 words for post flop play

Always and Never

b

[Clarkmeister]

In case I haven't said it yet this month, Louie is still IMO the best poster on these forums.

All you new players...........do yourselves a favor and do a search through the archives and read everything this man has ever written. He will make you a lot of money.

[anatta]

Funny you said that since that is how I found this thread, seaching all of LL's posts after reading your praise. You are right, I am learning a lot from him...much thanks to both of you.