QJs in BB

[Jim Easton]

Typical loose, not too aggressive Party Poker 3/6. I get Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif in the BB. UTG limps, MP limps, CO raises (I haven't been impressed with CO's play at all so far) button and SB fold. I am certain UTG and MP will call, very unlikely they 3-bet. I look to be getting 7:1 on my call. I call. As expected, UTG and MP call, too.

Flop is:

4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif

I "check to the raiser", looking to check raise - if he 3-bets, I would be certain I was behind would have to fold. He bets, I raise, UTG calls, MP folds, CO folds.

Turn:

J /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

2 pair, decide to try checkraise again, feeling a check here might induce a call on the river if he checks behind me. He bets, I raise, he calls.

River:

3 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

I bet, he calls.

Was that too loose a call out of the BB? What about checkraising the turn? Any other criticism?

[Jim Easton]

He had A /forums/images/icons/club.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif for the flopped flush draw and an ace high on the river. My check on the turn could have given him a free card to beat me. I have no idea why he called on the river.

[marbles]

Flop is:

4c6hQc
I "check to the raiser", looking to check raise - if he 3-bets, I would be certain I was behind would have to fold.

--Shaky, shaky logic. When you called preflop, you justified your call by saying that he didn't necessarily have a premium hand or a hand that dominates you. Now that the flop hit you right between the eyes, all he needs is a 3-bet to scare you off? I personally would bet out and hope he raises to allow a 3-bet. If he caps, then I slow down, but certainly not fold just yet.

[Jim Easton]

When you called preflop, you justified your call by saying that he didn't necessarily have a premium hand or a hand that dominates you.

I was looking at 7:1 with a hand with both flush and straight possibilities.

Now that the flop hit you right between the eyes

I don't really see this as hitting me hard, but rather hitting me in a way that is tricky to deal with - top pair in the "raising zone", with not a great kicker against a preflop raiser.

all he needs is a 3-bet to scare you off?

The key word is "he" as opposed to some other opponent. A three bet from him on this flop would mean I was definitely behind to AA, KK or AQ.

I personally would bet out and hope he raises

Again, a raise from him on this flop means AA, KK or AQ.

Thanks for the input.

[pudley4]

Preflop is an easy call.

Flop checkraise is perfect. Do not fold to a 3-bet from him. If he has AA (12 ways) or KK (12 ways), you have 5 outs (8-1 odds) in a 13 sb pot, easily good enough odds to continue. If he has AQ (8 ways), you've got 3 outs (14-1 odds), almost enough to continue. So he's a 3-1 favorite to have an overpair if he 3-bets and you're only an 8-1 dog with 13 bets in the pot. It would be a bad fold.

On the turn I'd bet out. If your opp is on a flush draw (which seems likely when he cold-calls 2 bets on the flop) he could very easily check behind and then fold the river if he doesn't improve.

River bet is obvious.

[Jim Easton]

Preflop is an easy call.

I thought so, but then questioned it when confronted with what I thought was a tricky situation.

It would be a bad fold.

I need to work on this type of analysis, thank you.

On the turn I'd bet out. If your opp is on a flush draw (which seems likely when he cold-calls 2 bets on the flop)

I think this was a little bit of FPS. I am trying to checkraise the turn more often, but don't think it was a good play here.

[marbles]

When you called preflop, you justified your call by saying that he didn't necessarily have a premium hand or a hand that dominates you.

"I was looking at 7:1 with a hand with both flush and straight possibilities."

--You mean you didn't notice the pictures on the cards? Would you make this same call with 54s? That hand has flush and straight possibilities too.

Now that the flop hit you right between the eyes

"I don't really see this as hitting me hard, but rather hitting me in a way that is tricky to deal with - top pair in the "raising zone", with not a great kicker against a preflop raiser."

--A good point, but again, it's crucial to note the position of the preflop raiser. If he's a decent player, his raising zone should be pretty big, and you're only behind a few of those hands.

all he needs is a 3-bet to scare you off?

"The key word is "he" as opposed to some other opponent. A three bet from him on this flop would mean I was definitely behind to AA, KK or AQ."

--Don't be too sure of that. The second card on the board is a 6. If there's a chance he could push you off with a flop 3-bet, he'd have every reason to do so with JJ-77. This would be particularly tempting since your CR screams Q-no kicker.

I personally would bet out and hope he raises

"Again, a raise from him on this flop means AA, KK or AQ."

--And not a free card raise with a nut flush draw? If we went back in time, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he tried just that.

"Thanks for the input."
--No problem.

[Jim Easton]

You mean you didn't notice the pictures on the cards?

Of course I did. That flop just had me thinking maybe I made a questionable call.

If he's a decent player,

He wasn't.

If there's a chance he could push you off with a flop 3-bet, he'd have every reason to do so with JJ-77.

True, but he wouldn't try that. You might, I might, many others might, but he wouldn't.

And not a free card raise with a nut flush draw? If we went back in time, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he tried just that.

UTG had the nut flush draw. The preflop raiser would not 3-bet a draw.

Folding would have been a mistake, though, as Pudley4 explained.

[marbles]

If he's a decent player,

"He wasn't."

-- This makes a huge, huge difference. Given that, I would play the flop exactly as you did. In fact, your points about folding are suddenly very valid... Although I'd still have a lot of trouble laying it down at that point. I'd call with odds, then check-fold if the turn doesn't help.

Now on to the turn... I personally prefer betting out here; the free card could be trouble, plus you might get a bet from the limper that you wouldn't get with a CR. I wouldn't go so far as to call the CR a mistake, though.

Overall, well read and played.

EDIT: Doh, just re-read the post. I had that all screwed up in my head... Thought it was 3-way to the river. My brain is worthless today.

[Jim Easton]

I'd call with odds

Yes, a fold would have been a mistake.

Now on to the turn... I personally prefer betting out here

Agreed. FPS.

Doh, just re-read the post. I had that all screwed up in my head

Done that a time or two myself.

My brain is worthless today.

Not at all, you challenged my assertions and made me justify my play. That's why we're here.

[davidross]

I like the play pre-flop and flop. I would not fold to a 3-bet on the flop. I might go to check-call mode though.

I love to check-raise the turn....but this is not a good spot for it. Lucky he was super agressive. His cold call on the flop screams flush draw or set. Either way you don't want to check th eturn. If he's drawing he checks behind you and folds on th eriver (normally) and if he's made the set you get 3-bet on the turn and have a tough decision to make(because it's a great semi-bluff opportunity for him).

Glad it worked out for you.