AK against a maniac and the rest of the table [Archive]

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paperboyNC

07-04-2005, 10:11 AM

Ok I just sat down at this table and am shocked to see action. I sat out a few hands where the maniac raised non-stop with nothing. He then raises non stop with nothing against me. Look at these first two hands to get the picture.

**** SAMPLE HAND #1 - MANIAC IS MP ****
PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, Manic (MP) raises, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, Manic (MP) caps, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Manic (MP) raises, SB folds, Hero 3-bets, Manic (MP) caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (10 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Manic (MP) raises, Hero calls.

River: (14 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Manic (MP) raises, Hero 3-bets, Manic (MP) folds.

Final Pot: 19 BB

**** SAMPLE HAND #2 - MANIAC IS BB ****

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 4 folds, Manic (BB) raises, UTG calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Manic (BB) bets, UTG raises, Manic (BB) 3-bets, UTG caps, Manic (BB) calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Manic (BB) bets, UTG raises, Manic (BB) 3-bets, UTG caps, Manic (BB) calls.

River: (14.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Manic (BB) bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 16.16 BB

Results:
Manic (BB) has 5s 2d (one pair, fives).
UTG has Ah Kd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: UTG wins 16.16 BB.

**** HAND IN QUESTION - MANIAC IS SB ****

I see this flop decision as extremely tough. While laying down AK offsuit pre-flop is bad, we have already had a raise and 3-bet pre-flop and the maniac is yet to act!

I read the raise and 3-bet as attempts to isolate the maniac. Everyone wants to be the one to win the huge pot off of him. The problem is that this makes a table very hard to read and makes playing a hand difficult.

Is this an easy call? Easy cap? Easy fold? I thought for about 10 seconds about this decision. I will follow-up with another decision against this maniac soon.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, MP 3-bets, Hero ?

boscoboy

07-04-2005, 10:59 AM

situations where i feel it is correct to fold AKo preflop:

this is one of them - you may already be behind and you are looking at (mostly likely)4 sbs for the right to miss the flop - or worse get a piece and be behind the whole way.

with this maniac at your table there will be much better spots to put you chips at risk

paperboyNC

07-04-2005, 11:42 AM

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, MP 3-bets, Hero calls, 1 fold, Maniac (SB) caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Maniac (SB) bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero raises, Maniac (SB) 3-bets, UTG calls, MP folds, Hero caps, Maniac (SB) calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (16.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Maniac (SB) bets, UTG raises, Hero ?

Okay... so UTG raised pre-flop, he got 3-bet and capped (plus 2 callers for 5 out of 6 seeing the flop). He smooth-calls (when he could have capped) the 3-bet on the flop and then comes out raising on the turn.

With just the three of us, I think he could have a king, a queen, pocket jacks, maybe a set? Either way, I think he's raising to isolate the maniac. If the maniac has nothing, then he can win even with a pair of 2s. The pot is worth $110 so he has a lot of reasons to try to get me out.

paperboyNC

07-04-2005, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
situations where i feel it is correct to fold AKo preflop:

this is one of them - you may already be behind and you are looking at (mostly likely)4 sbs for the right to miss the flop - or worse get a piece and be behind the whole way.

with this maniac at your table there will be much better spots to put you chips at risk

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that I should have folded pre-flop there. I wasn't going to be able to read hands well. If I am up against AA, I am drawing almost dead pre-flop. Was just a risky hand.

Moozh

07-04-2005, 11:53 AM

You can't fold here. With the extra raising potentially being just an attempt to isolate, you can't automatically assume AA or KK. As long as your pair outs are good, you have to play this. If you manage to hit a pair, you'll not only be getting action from the maniac, but also from the other players who will often continue to try and isolate with a weaker hand. Not only is it very likely you have a strong equity edge preflop, but you stand to make even more if you hit a pair.

Moozh

07-04-2005, 11:56 AM

Ouch, that turn raise is horrible. It's made worse by the fact that you still might have some chance of being ahead. If UTG is smart, he could be making a brilliant isolation play. If he isn't that smart, it's very likely he has you beat.

Since the pot is too big to let it go without a fight, I'd raise one more time and see what UTG does when it comes back to him capped. If he's still pumping things on the river, it's probably time to let it go.

damaniac

07-04-2005, 12:13 PM

I wouldn't fold. First off, it is 6-handed, so raising standards should be appreciably lighter. No reason to fold this here. As for cold-calling or capping, I'd just as soon cap.

1) It's getting capped by the maniac anyway, so you are paying the same and you are getting no new information by seeing if UTG caps.

2) It sort of depends on the opposition, but seeing a TAG cold-call 3 bets immediately makes me suspicious. Capping could mean you have a really good hand, but given the nature of the table, it could be a fairly light cap too, so it doesn't define your hand that much.

In any event, on the turn, I don't think you can fold at all given the huge pot size and the nature of the maniac, UTG could well be isolating him with a worse hand, or even if he has KQ (strangely played on the flop), you have a few outs. It isn't impossible he has something like QJ /images/graemlins/club.gif either.

The mitigating factor here is that the maniac is probably three-betting and UTG will often cap, which means you are paying a heck of a lot (24.5:4, or 6:1) to see the river. However, I do think that you can fold the river UI for more than one bet if UTG caps the turn, as he is really unlikely to be putting a move on at that point, so you won't pay more without improvement.

I guess I just call the turn and see if it comes back capped to me or not. By then I'm committed to see the river card due to pot size. Hope this worked out for you.

paperboyNC

07-04-2005, 12:16 PM

Moozh,

Thanks for the response. The UTG has been talking trash to the maniac ever since I sat at the table telling him how he'll be broke soon. Does this help the read?

Mike Gallo

07-04-2005, 12:22 PM

Paperboy,

Welcome aboard.

If you do not play in these tough spots preflop, you will never develop your post flop skills.

I would gladly cap here, unless I knew for certain UTG would only raise with AA. I cannot see folding this against these opponents.

Moozh

07-04-2005, 12:24 PM

Unfortunately it doesn't really seem to matter much to me. If he's bantering with the maniac, then it's very likely his main goal in the hand is to show down a better hand than the maniac. In the process, he can get so caught up in his persuit to beat the maniac that he will make the fatal mistake of totally ignoring you.

So in the end analysis, it looks like it's very very likely that UTG thinks he has the maniac beat. But, it's really hard to tell whether or not he's also aware that he has to beat you too.

I guess if I had to pick, I'd give the edge to the read making it more likely he has you beat. I'm guessing that if he doesn't respect the maniac, he's less likely to make the same mistakes.

paperboyNC

07-04-2005, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you do not play in these tough spots preflop, you will never develop your post flop skills.

I would gladly cap here, unless I knew for certain UTG would only raise with AA. I cannot see folding this against these opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

Thanks for the welcome. I was really worried about reading hands post-flop which ended up being my problem. It was very hard to put anyone on a hand.

Mike Gallo

07-04-2005, 08:06 PM

I was really worried about reading hands post-flop which ended up being my problem. It was very hard to put anyone on a hand.

Finish what you started, how did the rest of the hand develop?

Mike Gallo

07-04-2005, 08:10 PM

Maniac (SB) bets, UTG raises, Hero ?

Cannot fold. Your most likely looking at a capped turn no matter if you call or reraise.

paperboyNC

07-04-2005, 11:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Finish what you started, how did the rest of the hand develop?

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand isn't really about the results. The Maniac had T9o and hit an eight on the river for a straight. I never found for sure what UTG had. He claimed he had 77 for a set.

My problem is that I tend to lose a lot of money at tables with aggressive maniacs, mostly because I can't read hands at all. It seems to be nearly impossible.

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG raises, MP 3-bets, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (20 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP folds, Hero caps, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (16.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (26.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 29.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has 9d Ts (straight, ten high).
UTG doesn't show.
Hero has Ah Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: SB wins 29.50 BB.

mtdoak

07-04-2005, 11:28 PM

First off, against maniacs, you need to isolate, isolate, isolate. If he's going to bluff raise anything, never ever cold call a raise of his, always 3 bet, unless there are a sea of cold callers in already. You can manipulate him to protect your hand if he's to the left of you and use him to build big pots if he's to the right of you (ideal). You need to realize that the money doesn't mean much to them, they are having fun. Let him bluff at hands, and don't go too crazy with marginal hands (like midpair). You also need to remember the rule of overcalling, as a maniac will losen up a table and often you can gain more bets by going for overcalls than you will getting a cap in with him. Also, be careful when the maniac slows down in a hand. If he's been capping capping capping every street, and he checks the river...unless you have a very strong hand (i.e. set, nut straight, etc), you can easily check behind and take the free showdown.

Also, a good move against LAGs is to confuse them if you can. Change your play post flop, change gears heads up, and even use some "fancy plays" if you can find a spot to use them (and use them well)