8-16 Bellagio - I butchered this one

[Clarkmeister]

Decent game. Nice and straightforward with multiple weak tighties and no tricksters in the bunch except for yours truly. And yours truly has only taken down 2 pots in nearly 3 hours, so they aren't onto my shenanigans. Unfortunately, sitting on the sidelines for 3 hours had me not really "into the flow of the game" and as a result I really think I played this one poorly.

A freakish 5 limpers to the SB who completes and I check wtih 6h9s.

Flop: 3d 3s 9d. SB checks, I check, UTG bets and only loses one to me. I call. 6 to the turn for 6.25BBs after rake.

Turn: 5c. SB checks, I bet, UTG calls, folded to SB who calls.

River: Qc. SB checks, I check.

Flame away.

[JTG51]

Any post that includes both 'butchered' and 'shenanigans' has got to be a good one in my book. It'll be hard to flame this one. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

I'd often bet the flop here, but I don't think a check is terrible.

You didn't mention if UTG is one of the weak tighies. The more likely he is to limp with 9x where x is smaller than a Q, the more likely I'd be to bet the river.

[Bob T.]

I think that you just compromised on this hand. Played passively, some of the time, and aggressively some of the other time. The river card, killed your kicker, but that might have been a good thing. It would be hard for anyone else without a kicker to call a bet on the river. Maybe, after betting the turn, you go ahead and bet the river, or maybe you check raise the flop, and bet the turn. But check-call, bet, check probably isn't the right way to play this one. Besides betting on two streets, the other option would be to fold the flop, the pot is fairly small, and if any of your opponents have a nine, you are most likely outkicked.

I think you get better marks on this hand if you either bet at least two streets, or if you fold on the flop, but if you kindof wander between the two strategies, you feel at the end of the hand that you didn't play well.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Mikey]

Let's not be results oriented and make believe our point in time was on the flop.
On the flop I'd check and fold but that is only because I'm weak tight.

[rayrns]

Maybe it is just me but I think you should have bet on the flop. Try to show a set and take down the pot right there. You can't get the pot odds to draw to the boat and any face on the turn will have you drawing dead.

[Ed Miller]

I probably would have bet the flop. I don't think a check is bad, though... but given the action... I think you have a clear fold here. There are five guys in front of you willing to bet/call... maybe there's a flush draw and a couple sets of overcards... but it's too likely that someone's either got a 3 or a 9/better kicker here I think.... even closing the action I think this is a fold. There are very few turn cards you'll be happy to see.

Having said that, the turn card is one of the only cards in the deck that actually doesn't look too bad. Betting out looks like a 3 to me, honestly... looks like you were planning to checkraise but now don't think you can expect a bet. I don't think it's so bad. Plus... as much as you don't want to be paying more money to show this down... you just as much don't want to give a free card to the overcards which are no doubt out there. Finally, you can fold no problem to a raise. So I like the turn bet.

I think your hand is good for a chop on the river... I actually might have bet... you could get a call from a smaller pocket pair... or maybe get someone with a 9 to make a bad fold.

[davidross]

I would bet this flop, if for no other reason than to give cover for the time you do flop trips. If I'm not raised I would bet the turn and see what happens from there.

If I checked it would be wit the intention to check-raise a late position bettor. WIth all those people still in I think I check-fold.

[pudley4]

When you check-call this flop it sets up a perfect check-raise on the turn (to represent trips). But when the turn comes, you bet out. Who's going to put you on trips now?

I think you confused UTG by betting out when an undercard came and when most LL players get confused they go into calldown mode. I think you should have checked the turn. If UTG bets and gets few callers, you should check-raise. If UTG bets and gets many callers you probably have to just call.

I think the flop check-call was fine. I think the river check was fine.

[Clarkmeister]

"I'd often bet the flop here, but I don't think a check is terrible"

I would bet the flop here with a better kicker. With such a large field, however I think checking and seeing what develops is a better plan.

Unfortunately, after seeing what developed, I think I chose the worst option (calling).

[Clarkmeister]

"The river card, killed your kicker, but that might have been a good thing"

Since UTG or SB are unlikely to have a worse 9 than 96, don't you think its almost certainly a good card? I did, and I still checked. Very poor play since my springing to life on the turn is almost certainly going to stop any worse hand from betting. However, all sorts of worse hands like 66-88 will likely call.

[Clarkmeister]

"Let's not be results oriented and make believe our point in time was on the flop"

You can make a case for folding. However, considering the flop action, and my 3 hour inactivity spell at the table, I think raising is clearly the better play. I'll ask the Masonesque "can you see why?"

[Clarkmeister]

I doubt many players would put me on trip 3's by betting out. Its a large field and by betting out, they will put me squarely on a 9. Since I have no kicker, this isn't a good thing. I lose all ability to make a better hand fold.

[Clarkmeister]

"but it's too likely that someone's either got a 3 or a 9/better kicker here I think"

I put UTG on a better 9. I had pretty little doubt about it, though a flush draw or big ace are both certainly possible. Thats why I think calling is the worst of my options. I have the worst hand, and calling does me no good here, and likely sets me up for a check-fold on most turn cards. I think raising has a lot of merit, though. If you are UTG with a mediocre 9, and the BB who has been asleep for 3 hours springs to life on this board by checkraising 5 people, how happy are you with your hand? Are you really calling down?

The key to me is the fact that no one raised UTG. That essentially means they have zilch, since hands with a 3 are unlikely in these tightish players' hands. So the key question becomes: If my read is that I am in 2nd place to UTG, how do I best use that information, coupled with the fact that I am the BB and have been very tight/passive til this point?

"Betting out looks like a 3 to me, honestly... looks like you were planning to checkraise but now don't think you can expect a bet. I don't think it's so bad. Plus... as much as you don't want to be paying more money to show this down... you just as much don't want to give a free card to the overcards which are no doubt out there. Finally, you can fold no problem to a raise. So I like the turn bet."

Good analysis. I think it definitely will be interpreted more as a 3 than what I have. The problem is that I didn't trust UTG to bet again with all the callers behind her, even with an innocuous card like a 5 hitting. The problem is that betting doesn't give her the best chance to fold. Checkraising is certainly an option. If I whiff on the checkraise am I really costing myself anything since I am likely still drawing?

On the river I have a clear bet. That was awful.

[Clarkmeister]

"I would bet this flop, if for no other reason than to give cover for the time you do flop trips"

With an overcard kicker I would have bet out.

[Clarkmeister]

"When you check-call this flop it sets up a perfect check-raise on the turn (to represent trips). But when the turn comes, you bet out. Who's going to put you on trips now?"

I think a lot of people will put me on trips. They just won't be sure enough of it to fold most of the time. You make a good point about my bet causing other non-trip hands to simply shut down and go into call down mode.

[Vehn]

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that check folding is the right play. Would I do that at the table? Of course not. I would bet the flop. I would bet the turn. I would bet the river but not expect to get much value from it. I would probably fold if popped along the way. This is my secret poker strategy.

[STOSH1]

"Nice and straightforward with multiple weak tighties and no tricksters in the bunch"

How about check raising the flop and lead out on the turn, either someone going to raise (if they really have trips) or you should drag the pot on the turn. If they are "weak tight" enough wouldn't this maximize your EV with minimum risk?

[Clarkmeister]

Stosh,

Given the action, my position and my table image, I think that is exactly how I should have played the hand.

[Clarkmeister]

I think betting the flop is bad. A bet isn't getting overcards out (as evidenced by UTG's bet), and we almost certainly have the worst nine. With a bigger kicker at least we have reversed domination on some of those overcard hands, and could still have the best 9.

I think checking the flop might be the only thing I did right on this hand. (other than knuckling preflop /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif )


You know, upon further review, is calling that bad? I'm closing the action getting 11.5-1. Any 6 probabaly gets me the whole pot (subject to redraws, of course....oviously *someone* has a flush draw), and any 3 or 9 likely gets me half, and could very well get me the whole thing in case I have the only 9.

[davidross]

But if you're going to call, why not bet out? That way your turn bet carries much more weight and maybe you can win it right there.

Just a thought.

[Clarkmeister]

"But if you're going to call, why not bet out?"

I don't know that I'm going to call though. I'm folding to a bet and a raise, regardless of where it comes from. I also might checkraise if the bet comes from the button or CO.

[JTG51]

You know, upon further review, is calling that bad? I'm closing the action getting 11.5-1.

I've got no problem with the flop call. You said it's a lot of weak tighites. It's obviously highly unlikely there's a 3 out there. If you put UTG on a 9, which I do also, there's only one left. I'm not necessarily going to put any of the callers on the case 9. I think it's more likely there's some pairs below 9 and a bunch of overcards.

Your kicker trouble is helped out by the paired board. If UTG does have a 9, you could have as many as 16 or 20 outs twice to chop with him, not to mention 3 6's to win the whole pot. Like I said above, I think a key is how tight UTG's limping standards are. Would he only limp UTG with A9s, or would he limp with 89s also?

[Clarkmeister]

UTG checked behind me and showed 9hTh. SB flashed the nut diamond draw and mucked. We chopped it up.

I definitely think betting the flop is wrong here. As far as the rest of the flop play, I am open to being convinced otherwise, but in hindsight I think I should have checkraised the flop and led the turn. A flop checkraise into a large field from a "tighty" such as myself would likely scare the crap out of anyone with a pair of 9s, and if they don't fold there, they could easily fold on the turn unless they had A9. Also, a checkraise on the flop will probabaly get one or two of the overcard hands behind UTG to fold for fear they are drawing dead, thus cleaning up some of my potential chop outs with a better 9.

Failing that, I think a turn checkraise is probabaly correct given my read that I was probabaly behind to UTG on the flop. The free card can only help, and if she bets, I can probabaly get it headsup with the flush draw right there. The only problem is that if she bets, I likely needed the freebie and if she checks, I likely didn't. Doh.

On the river its a pretty clear bet. My fishy looking turn bet probabaly insulates me from a raise unless they have trips beat.

[Punker]

I like the check on the flop, waiting for more information before putting money into the pot; in fact, when I flop top pair weak kicker in the BB against many people, I like to check as an auto play. However, when it comes back to you with 5 people still in the hand, I think a fold is advised. To win this hand, you will almost certainly have to hit a 9. It really hurts your hand that there is already a pair on board, so that your 6 is a very dicey out (ie, you won't beat TT even if you hit). Yes, the pot is 12SB, but I think you're going to have to make the best hand to win this pot and I don't think you will often enough.

The fire out on the turn looks odd to me, but it's confusing enough of a play that it's likely to induce some incorrect folds. Further, you may get UTG (the flop bettor) to raise you and clear the field, giving you a better chance to change overcards like A or K from cards that beat you to cards that give you a tie (against the UTG player's T9 or similar). When he doesn't raise you, it looks more and more like he's on the flush draw. When SB calls however, I'd be getting worried; it's hard to imagine a hand he calls the turn with that doesn't beat you, unless it's another flush draw. When you do bet the turn, I would call a raise if it was going to be headsup, but fold if any other players were involved.

Checking the river seems fine to me; you'll likely get called by the missed diamond draw with the Qd if it's out there, you'll certainly be called by any 9 with whom you can at best tie, and missed diamond draws will be unlikely (but possible!) to call you. You don't indicate the UTG river action.

Other than calling the flop, I think the play of this hand was fine, with the turn bet being especially interesting.