Party 30-60 Turned nuts

[FatalError]

My logic for the turn lead is to follow, UTG is mr 700 himself calling station extraordinare, all others are very tag, between 10-18 vpip over the 300 hands i have with them

so it begs asking, was a turn lead very wrong here?

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds.

River: (11 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB

[AlexSem]

why not raise preflop

why not 4-bet flop

why not check the turn hoping for someone to catch the 4th spade and pay you off with a K high?

[Nightwish]

How much of a calling station is UTG? Meaning, how likely is he to call the flop if you were to cap? Because if he is pretty likely to call 3 cold, then you should cap the flop for value.

[DonButtons]

UTG see's 100% flops, 100% lol. Enough said.

[rory]

Raise preflop, 4 bet the flop. Turn lead is correct because the most likely bettor the guy to your right, which means if you go for a check-raise you'll be facing the rest of the field with 2 cold which is no good. Better to bet and trap the people in between for a bet if you can, hoping your right hand opponent raises again. Also with the flop action, it looks like there could be a smaller flush draw out there and you want to give whoever that might be a chance to raise you so you can 3-bet.

[rory]

The K is unlikely to fold for one more bet on the turn anyway.

[Victor]

raise preflop since your hand is the best.

4bet the flop because you have 12-15 outs so with 3 opponents you are making money.

turn and river are fine.

[Ezcheeze]

Not raising preflop was one of the biggest mistakes you've ever made at limit hold em.

[FatalError]

The reasons i did'nt raise preflop were two fold

#1 the table had been relatively passive, a preflop raise would probably cut down on my flop action, i decided not to raise for deceptions

#2 UTG is a station and if i whiff this flop after raising preflop i'm left in a spot where i'm leading a flop i cannot hope to win, i wanted to see the flop before committing anymore chips

I guess this reasoning is probably wrong but i don't feel like my lack of a preflop raise was disasterous, although i will admit not capping the flop was a poor decision

[Ezcheeze]

Not raising preflop is DISASTROUS. Just plug in some likely hands for the limipers to have run a sim on twodimes vs AQ suited and see the percentages. Put some different hands in and run it agian. What you'll find is in almost every case AQ suited is a huge money favorite preflop, enough so that it overides any postflop advantage that comes from not raising.

I wasn't joking or exaggerating at all when I said not raising preflop was one of the biggest mistakes you've ever made in limit hold em.

[Ezcheeze]

In regards to #2, you should not be leading at every flop just becuase you raise preflop. You raise preflop for the value of your hand but its value can obviously decrease drastically on certain flops. Enough so that instead of betting you would check call or even check fold some.

Run those sims and that shoudl be enough to convince you that you made a FatalError in this hand preflop.

[Ezcheeze]

In regards to #1 I think you might be a little confused. By raising preflop you are going to accomplish the exact opposite of what you intend to do. By doubling the size of the pot you will entise your opponents to play on with any piece at all. This in itself has both benefits and drawbacks, but its overall impact is miniscule when compared to the +EV bump you get from getting more money in with the best of it.

[FatalError]

Thanks for the advice, i guess i was playing a little too gunshy on my first trip to 30-60 online, i could'nt pass up a seat on this megafish's right, i actually won 2500 on the session but still felt like i left 3-4 bets on the table over the course of the session and this was the hand where i felt like this happened most, i guess i missed a full 3-4 BB in there which is a little painful to realize

[Net Warrior]

I hate to quibble /images/graemlins/smile.gif but 5c 3c was the nuts on the turn. I agree with capping the flop and I'm fast becomming a convert to raisng preflop here too.

[AlwaysWrong]

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't joking or exaggerating at all when I said not raising preflop was one of the biggest mistakes you've ever made in limit hold em.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you were. All of the biggest mistakes in limit holdem are folds. By a longshot.

Not raising here is quite bad, much worse than not capping the flop, but to call it one of the worst mistakes ever... come on.

[elindauer]

Hi FatalError,

Some big mistakes in this hand, and they're not even in the spots you're asking about.

1st, raise preflop. You have the best hand AND the best draw. What more could you ask from just two cards?

2nd, cap the flop. You cap for value, and it looks like you may have a hand as weak as 1 pair when you lead after turning a flush. Oddly, the flop cap makes money in itself, AND it gets you more action should you make your hand. Sweet combination.

Having mucked it all up the way you did, leading the turn is fine. The trouble with checking is a) it may get checked through, and b) if it's not checked through, the most likely bet is on your right, so you face the field w/ 2 cold in a spot where you want everyone calling. Sadly, betting screams nut flush too, but at least they only have to call 1 to satisfy their curiosity.

Good luck.
Eric