$10+1 vs. $20+2 at Party Poker

[PokerProdigy]

Recently, I have been KILLING the $10+1 at party but today when I stepped up to the $20+2 I didn't have much success. I am just wondering if there is anything that you guys have noticed about the differences in these games and how one should adjust to them strategically? Or should one just play the exact same game?

[Ixnert]

Slightly fewer (and I really do mean slightly) absolute idiots. That's about it. I play very nearly the same game in both and have slightly better stats in the 10s mostly by virtue of more people there knocking themselves out in the early running.

Assuming you actually are playing the same game, it's probably just random.

[ZBTHorton]

What do you mean by killing?

And how big was your sample size?

[PokerProdigy]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you mean by killing?

And how big was your sample size?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, I have a very small sample size for the $10+1 sng's, but I still feel like I understand the game and can absolutely beat it. But with the $20+2 I didn't have ANY success.

[Bluff Daddy]

ummm ok, did YOU notice anything different? were you gettin your money in with the best hand most of the time or with good odds? Im sure you didnt play near enough to matter at all, but no the 20's arent any tougher than the 10's

[Turk]

I found the $22's to be tougher than the $11's. I cant say I was "killing" anything, but I had +1500 SNG's in the 11's with 40%ITM 25%=/- ROI and moved up to a big can of whoop ass...moved back rebuilt & repeated a few times.

Now I play in the $22's and all is getting back on track...I am back at 40% ITM with a postive ROI through 100 or so.

I think the differences were a few less terrible players and a couple more good ones.
Frankly, I also think that some of it was in my head as well
that the fact I was playing for twice the money was somewhere in the back of my mind, and that effected me.

[PokerProdigy]

[ QUOTE ]
ummm ok, did YOU notice anything different? were you gettin your money in with the best hand most of the time or with good odds? Im sure you didnt play near enough to matter at all, but no the 20's arent any tougher than the 10's

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I definetly had a few bad beats and I didn't have a chance to play in many of the $20+2's because I am gonna move back down to the $10+1 to rebuild and then take another shot at the $20's. Basically, I just wanted to know if the $20's are gonna be SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult than the $10's, because it seems like there are a few more players left in some of the middle-later rounds of the $20's which I was thinking might make them more difficult. Maybe it was just coincidence or maybe it was just in my head, but I am wondering if I should expect to beat the $20's almost as well as I beat the $10's within a few weeks or so???

[45suited]

First you wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
I have a very small sample size for the $10+1 sng's

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you ask:

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering if I should expect to beat the $20's almost as well as I beat the $10's within a few weeks or so???

[/ QUOTE ]

How is anyone supposed to answer your question if you have such a small sample size that you really don't have a good idea what your ROI is at the 11s?

At this point, you don't even know if you can sustain your short term run on the 11s, much less sustain it long term on the 22s.

My answer: Yes, the 22s are slightly more difficult, but you should continue to play the 11s until you have played at least 500 games with a reasonable ROI before moving up.

[pergesu]

The only difference between the $11s and $22s is that you make twice as much $$ at the $22s. holla

[proell]

[ QUOTE ]
but today when I stepped up to the $20+2 I didn't have much success.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's gonna take more than a day to determine whether or not the 22's are tougher for you or not. Any given day is just noise and you should pay little attention to the results (but pay close attention to your play).

IMO you should start at whichever limit you feel comfortable with for your bankroll. If you have plenty of bankroll for the 22's (~$600) then I would say give them a shot, otherwise stick to the 11's. Either way try to stick it out through 500 tourneys at least (or even 1,000 if you have a marginal ROI) before making any decision about moving up.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but today when I stepped up to the $20+2 I didn't have much success.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
I lost like $130 at the $22s today, but I'm a 28% ROIer over the last 1300. So uh...[censored] happens? More likely, I've been luckboxing the past few weeks but actually just suck.

[PokerProdigy]

[ QUOTE ]
First you wrote:

[ QUOTE ]
I have a very small sample size for the $10+1 sng's

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you ask:

[ QUOTE ]
I am wondering if I should expect to beat the $20's almost as well as I beat the $10's within a few weeks or so???

[/ QUOTE ]

How is anyone supposed to answer your question if you have such a small sample size that you really don't have a good idea what your ROI is at the 11s?

At this point, you don't even know if you can sustain your short term run on the 11s, much less sustain it long term on the 22s.

My answer: Yes, the 22s are slightly more difficult, but you should continue to play the 11s until you have played at least 500 games with a reasonable ROI before moving up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, this is what I wanted to know, because I relize that I have a small sample size but I am not asking you to critique my specific results here, but rather to say if in general should one expect very similar ROI's between the $10+1 and $20+2???

[pergesu]

I already said that they're both the same, you just win twice as much at the $22s.

[RisingBlinds]

[ QUOTE ]
Recently, I have been KILLING the $10+1 at party but today when I stepped up to the $20+2 I didn't have much success. I am just wondering if there is anything that you guys have noticed about the differences in these games and how one should adjust to them strategically? Or should one just play the exact same game?

[/ QUOTE ]

If having one unsuccessful day in SNG tourneys is enough to make you wonder if the problem is with your game, I'd highly advise staying in the lower buyins a while longer.

It's either you're worrying for nothing, or you really aren't ready. I would ask a few questions...

1. Is your bankroll truly ready for the jump? Having 25-30 buyins for the lower game and then having it cut in half is enough to make you wonder about your game since you might not be playing with a "safe" bankroll.

2. What sample size do you have for you to claim that you are "killing" the $10 game? Runs of good and bad results happen at any level, strictly part of the game. Could explain one day's lack of success in the $20 game.

3. If you've played a lot recently, have you taken any breaks to analyze either your own stats or hand history (from PT or whatever medium), or even take a well-deserved break if you've been winning consistently?

Regardless, I finally decided to post, so thanks for getting me off my butt after all this lurking time. The skill level between these sng's really doesn't fluctuate at any of the major sites that I have seen, so the jump shouldn't be affecting your game from a "players being better" standpoint, at least not at the $10 to $20 level.

I hope this gives you something to think about.

[unreal_nh]

to be honest, in my personal experience i haven't seen any considerable difference between the 10's and the 20's. Even the 30's which i have just recently started playing dont seem much different either. I haven't changed my play at all, and things seem to be going fine.

[unreal_nh]

just a little (maybe extreme) example of the $33 sng
***** Hand History for Game 2312830893 *****
NL Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:13666650 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Tuesday, July 05, 07:34:06 EDT 2005
Table Table 11067 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: griffrancis ( $798 )
Seat 2: drmerlin333 ( $2053 )
Seat 3: Tdoublebrown ( $465 )
Seat 4: daicathai ( $775 )
Seat 5: ntheriver ( $884 )
Seat 6: jimtinkle ( $1035 )
Seat 9: unreal_nh ( $730 )
Seat 10: safern ( $1260 )
Trny:13666650 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to unreal_nh [ Qd Qs ]
drmerlin333 folds.
Tdoublebrown is all-In [465]
daicathai folds.
ntheriver is all-In [884]
jimtinkle folds.
>You have options at Table 11276 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11227 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11276 Table!.
unreal_nh will be using his time bank for this hand.
>You have options at Table 11276 Table!.
>You have options at Table 11491 Table!.
unreal_nh folds.
safern folds.
griffrancis folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5c, Ah, 7d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
** Dealing River ** [ 9h ]
Tdoublebrown shows [ 9s, Ks ] a pair of nines.
ntheriver shows [ 8c, Ad ] a pair of aces.
ntheriver wins 419 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of aces.
ntheriver wins 975 chips from the main pot with a pair of aces.
Tdoublebrown finished in eighth place.
Tdoublebrown has left the table.

[PrayingMantis]

Well if those clowns made you fold QQ here they actually outplayed you by a big margin (especially ntheriver ), so I don't really see your point.

[OrcaDK]

Is folding QQ here that bad? I might consider doing the same.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Is folding QQ here that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a $20, yes.

[tminus]

I dont see any difference between the 10's and 20's.
Probably just variance...

I've played the same game for the past few months and...
My ROI was 20% last month and 1% this month.
My ITM was 42% last month and 34% this month.

[OrcaDK]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is folding QQ here that bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

In a $20, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

The example was from a $30, still bad? (Genuinely curious).

[adanthar]

Probably. One of these guys has crap and the other has a hand slightly better than crap.

In a 109 I'd give the second guy some credit and if it was a regular I'd *think* about it (I wouldn't actually fold or anything but it wouldn't be horrible.)

[OrcaDK]

I think i may have to readjust my love for QQ... JJ is a sure fold then, right?

[MasterShakes]

I just started seriously playing the 10+1's. Last night, I was twice pushed off of better hands because of action from two players going all-in (QQ and AKo). I felt bad about folding both of them. I feel worse now that I've read this, as well as knowing that both hands would have held up for a triple up early in each tourney. Still learning though... only 80 or so in with around a 9% ROI.

[RedManPlus]

[ QUOTE ]

My answer: Yes, the 22s are slightly more difficult, but you should continue to play the 11s until you have played at least 500 games with a reasonable ROI before moving up.

[/ QUOTE ]


This fails the most basic test of logic.

If the $22's are only "slightly" tougher than the $11's...
Than why bother with the $11's at all...
Unless you have a micro-bankroll.

In my opinion...
The $11 NL is Party are much easier to beat...
Than the $2/$4 limit...
** For me anyway **...
And I'm new to online poker.
(But I'm a very experienced trader...
So the strategic decisions in NL seem very natural to me).

Poker Edge stats back this up.
Most $2/$4 tables have 2 or 3 solid players...
While the $11s clearly have fewer.

If you just play super tight at the start...
At least 2 players will blow their brains out in the first 20-30 hands...
So you are starting with $700 vs 8 players...
Much better odds than $800 vs 10 players.

Then the real tournament starts.

rm+

/images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[unreal_nh]

Folding QQ in this situation seemed to me to be the right decision. I knew I was probably up against a coinflip, which i strongly try to avoid early on in a sng. i mean, i'll admit when i saw their two cards flip over i was a little pissed that i folded, by far, the best hand. but not so much when i saw the ace flop. even KK here would seem like a very iffy situation. maybe i'm retarded.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
maybe i'm retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only played about 1K SNGs (11-33), which is a lot less than a lot of people here, but.
1) Unreal, I would never fold QQ there.
2) I don't see any major difference between the $11s-$33s. I agree with pergesu on this one.
3) I would never post on here "maybe I'm retarted" because far too many people would agree with me (about me I mean, not you)

I would be playing $55s but I spent my bankroll on 2 sweet vacations so I'm back at $11s for now with a hundred bucks. So stupid. You shouldn't even listen to anything I have to say! Maybe I'm retarded.

[unreal_nh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
maybe i'm retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only played about 1K SNGs (11-33), which is a lot less than a lot of people here, but.
1) Unreal, I would never fold QQ there.
2) I don't see any major difference between the $11s-$33s. I agree with pergesu on this one.
3) I would never post on here "maybe I'm retarted" because far too many people would agree with me (about me I mean, not you)

I would be playing $55s but I spent my bankroll on 2 sweet vacations so I'm back at $11s for now with a hundred bucks. So stupid. You shouldn't even listen to anything I have to say! Maybe I'm retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]


i guess it illustrates my point of how much people suck at the 33's if i folded QQ here. yes i am a douche.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Folding QQ in this situation seemed to me to be the right decision. I knew I was probably up against a coinflip, which i strongly try to avoid early on in a sng. i mean, i'll admit when i saw their two cards flip over i was a little pissed that i folded, by far, the best hand. but not so much when i saw the ace flop. even KK here would seem like a very iffy situation. maybe i'm retarded.


[/ QUOTE ]

You're not retarded, you probably just need more expirience and more reading/thinking about the game. Generally, when you play against awful opponents, it makes sense to play very tight in the early rounds in order to let them bust eachother. However, playing TOO tight and scared is certainly a mistake. Your good hands are worth so much more against the avarage opponents' range of hands, so folding them when you are obviously ahead (often enough, not _always_) is leaving money on the table. You don't have such a big advantage that you can pass on such big +EV spots. This is in a sense kind of similar to the main idea of Ed Millers' LHE book: you still play very tight against those bad players, but when you have an edge, any edge, you push it as far as you can.

[unreal_nh]

u make a good valid point. its just that when i see someone go all in and someone else call instantaneously i figure i'm beat. i honestly thought when i moved up to the 33's that people might be a little more worthy in situations like this, but i guess i was wrong. thanks for the advice.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
when i see someone go all in and someone else call instantaneously i figure i'm beat

[/ QUOTE ]

You should think about it in context. It's not just 1 player goes all-in and another calls, as you say. First player is a shorty, the next can be isolating with a pretty nice range. It's not like a big stack pushed and another big stack called.

[unreal_nh]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2795631&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1

tell me what you think about this one...

[New York Jet]

[ QUOTE ]
I knew I was probably up against a coinflip, which i strongly try to avoid early on in a sng.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you knew you were against a coinflip in a threeway pot, folding is a major error. Avoiding heads-up coinflips when the pot odds are close is one thing, avoiding coinflips in multiway pots when you have the best of it is a terrible mistake.

[unreal_nh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I knew I was probably up against a coinflip, which i strongly try to avoid early on in a sng.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you knew you were against a coinflip in a threeway pot, folding is a major error. Avoiding heads-up coinflips when the pot odds are close is one thing, avoiding coinflips in multiway pots when you have the best of it is a terrible mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

did you catch the part where i mentioned i was a douche?

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
I found the $22's to be tougher than the $11's. I cant say I was "killing" anything, but I had +1500 SNG's in the 11's with 40%ITM 25%=/- ROI and moved up to a big can of whoop ass...moved back rebuilt & repeated a few times.

Now I play in the $22's and all is getting back on track...I am back at 40% ITM with a postive ROI through 100 or so.

I think the differences were a few less terrible players and a couple more good ones.
Frankly, I also think that some of it was in my head as well
that the fact I was playing for twice the money was somewhere in the back of my mind, and that effected me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the 22s are tougher than the 11s. Still beatable for a decent ROI of course.

I think most who has gone on to the higher limits had good runs on both 11s and 22s with not all that many tourneys played. Which is why you hear them say there is no difference.

Subtract a donk and a tight passive player in the 11s with a good player and a tight aggressive player and you have the 22s.

[PokerProdigy]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be playing $55s but I spent my bankroll on 2 sweet vacations so I'm back at $11s for now with a hundred bucks. So stupid. You shouldn't even listen to anything I have to say! Maybe I'm retarded.


[/ QUOTE ]

Man, that sucks! You should've kept the bankroll and then you coulda paid for the vacations with your winnings at the $55 or $109 level. It's ok though, I don't think you're retarded. Ok maybe just a little /images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
My answer: Yes, the 22s are slightly more difficult, but you should continue to play the 11s until you have played at least 500 games with a reasonable ROI before moving up.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
This fails the most basic test of logic.

If the $22's are only "slightly" tougher than the $11's...
Than why bother with the $11's at all...
Unless you have a micro-bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bother? Because the OP has a small sample size and doesn't even yet know if he is a winning player at the 11s. Even if the 11s were exactly the same difficulty as the 22s, if it turns out that he is a losing player, he will go through his B/R twice as quickly.

What do you hear more often? Posters lamenting the fact that they stayed at lower limits too long and made a smaller profit than they could have or posters lamenting the fact they moved up too quickly and blew their bankroll?

No shame in the OP taking his time, learning, and building his B/R for a while.

[RisingBlinds]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I found the $22's to be tougher than the $11's. I cant say I was "killing" anything, but I had +1500 SNG's in the 11's with 40%ITM 25%=/- ROI and moved up to a big can of whoop ass...moved back rebuilt & repeated a few times.

Now I play in the $22's and all is getting back on track...I am back at 40% ITM with a postive ROI through 100 or so.

I think the differences were a few less terrible players and a couple more good ones.
Frankly, I also think that some of it was in my head as well
that the fact I was playing for twice the money was somewhere in the back of my mind, and that effected me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the 22s are tougher than the 11s. Still beatable for a decent ROI of course.

I think most who has gone on to the higher limits had good runs on both 11s and 22s with not all that many tourneys played. Which is why you hear them say there is no difference.

Subtract a donk and a tight passive player in the 11s with a good player and a tight aggressive player and you have the 22s.

[/ QUOTE ]

To put it a different way, for most "non-casual" players, like our 2+2 OP, the $22's is where most "non-casual" players start "true" study and trying to improve their play.

You still get fish, but you're going to encounter more decent players. Some of them will be the same type of folk you are, finally discovering the power of the poker forums, etc.

The games are still soft, just expect to encounter a few more that actually have a clue is what I'm saying.

[yid3655]

I agree with most of what has been said, the difference between the $10's and $20's is very little

Id be interested to hear peoples thoughts on the difference between the $20's and $30's? I am thinking about moving upto $30 once I have a sufficient bankroll. I would be 4 tabling the $30's