Too passive with KK?

[sammy_g]

I hate the way I played this hand. I think I was ahead on the turn, but I wanted to induce a bluff from a worse hand and not lose so much if I was against trips. Dunno about the river fold.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($110.58)
UTG ($75.15)
Hero ($135.55)
SB ($85.9)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $6</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls $4.

Flop: ($13.50) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $10</font>, Hero calls $10.

Turn: ($33.50) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($33.50) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $30</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $63.50

[beginnersluck13]

I think that you didn't necessarily play the hand badly, but that you just didn't get any information as to what villian has. I would be tempted to put in a raise on the flop, or atleast a 2/3rds pot sized bet on the turn to see where I am at, if he calls I am check/folding the river and if he raises I would probably toss the hand barring other reads.

[eagletmr]

I agree with the previous post. I' like raising here on the flop to find out where I am at. If you choose to call, definitely bet the turn.

[TexArcher]

With no read, I'd double the bet on the flop.

And if not, I'd definitely be betting at that turn after his check.

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
With no read, I'd double the bet on the flop.

And if not, I'd definitely be betting at that turn after his check.

[/ QUOTE ]

doubling the bet...or minraising is a bad idea here...all it does is invite an agressive villain to threebet us here and cause us to lay down the best hand. Against a LAG i favor calling down here. If you raise a LAG u give him a chance to out play you with some maniacal over the top raise...if you call him down you can let him shovel all of his chips to you. Sometimes he will wake up with a J, but IMO this line is +EV against LAG.

[savman]

if you are calling the flop you should not be folding the river.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
if you are calling the flop you should not be folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

nobody should listen to this advice.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
if you are calling the flop you should not be folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
i was more afraid of the ace than the jack.

but i think it's a call given how weakly i played the hand.

[jonnyUCB]

reraise more preflop. You should be doing this with a wide range of hands 4-handed, on the button esp

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are calling the flop you should not be folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

nobody should listen to this advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

give me a break....ridiculous post...nothing has changed, hero called a pot bet on flop. you think villain was betting backdoor flush, or A high.

the point i was making is why in the world are you calling the flop just to fold to a river pot. if you dont think your hand is good on the flop, fold. why call and fold to another pot bet when nothing has changed. that is insane. i mean were you calling on the flop hoping to spike a king, get real.

[savman]

while i am here i am going to clarify a few things. in my first post i sort of got myself on a tangent explaining why i dont like a minraise on the flop. I followed it up with the post voltron, despite not giving any explanation, said was bad advice.

the way the hand was played it looks to me like villain has jjjx or better, and is hoping Ax just got there so hero will pay off his hand. Against an unknown i am folding the flop, i really dont know why you want to raise here, villain defenitely calls with anything that beats you and folds anything you beat. The whole gist of my thread was geared towards playing a LAG, really just a tangent i went off on. I still dont think anything on the board has changed. I think hero was behind on the flop. The point is this, the hand range you put villain on in order to justify a flop call, must dictate a river call here. I just dont how your read can be so accurate as to say...hmmm villain was betting A high on the flop, three outer just got there i need to fold.

[Macquarie]

I'm interested in more comments on this hand.

Looks to me like AK or AQ making a good bet on the flop, and then getting lucky on the river.

I like your line here - you got unlucky to hit an A on the river, and I'd say it was a good fold. For all other river cards, you may well inspire another bet from hands you beat, hand which will fold to you flop raise. Folding the flop is very weak IMO.

Doesn't raising the flop for information just give money to hands you are beating, and win nothing more from hands that are losing?

[Macquarie]

I'd say villain is far more likely to be playing AK or AQ and making a nice bluff on the flop that playing something with a J, especially since he checks the turn - this gives us all the information we needed.

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say villain is far more likely to be playing AK or AQ and making a nice bluff on the flop that playing something with a J, especially since he checks the turn - this gives us all the information we needed.

[/ QUOTE ]

at 100NL he could be looking to check raise the turn with JJJ or better, or just taking the weak when strong approach. If villain was on a flop bluff and then checks the turn into a pf raiser who smooth called the flop, that seems like a weak bluff to me.

Howver, I am now willing to concede that we do gain a little more inforation when the ace falls and villain pots it....regardless he isnt afraid of the ace so we are behind both ways....maybe my call the flop dont fold the river needs some caveats. I still submit that it is not improbable for it to be a scenario where a flop call dictates a river call.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say villain is far more likely to be playing AK or AQ and making a nice bluff on the flop that playing something with a J, especially since he checks the turn - this gives us all the information we needed.

[/ QUOTE ]
Macquarie, you've articulated my thoughts much better than i have in this thread. this was exactly my read.

[savman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are calling the flop you should not be folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

nobody should listen to this advice.

[/ QUOTE ]

give me a break....ridiculous post...nothing has changed, hero called a pot bet on flop. you think villain was betting backdoor flush, or A high.

the point i was making is why in the world are you calling the flop just to fold to a river pot. if you dont think your hand is good on the flop, fold. why call and fold to another pot bet when nothing has changed. that is insane. i mean were you calling on the flop hoping to spike a king, get real.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK scratch all of this i am wrong. The fact that villain is not afraid of the ace is bad....we are behind almost all of his likely holdings....this is enough information to fold....forget my earlier comment, and i apologize voltron if i was rude. Did I mention i am on narcotics due to an extensive leg injury? My bad man.

[savman]

and yes i realize i am basically carrying on a converstion with myself in this thread. in case anyone was wondering.

[NYCNative]

Villain shouldn't be betting the flop if he has a Jack so I'm pretty sure you have the best hand here. I raise the flop and then make a big bet on the turn. Villain either goes away, makes a bad call for all his chips on a draw or indeed shows you AJ and you can note his play for the future.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that you didn't necessarily play the hand badly, but that you just didn't get any information as to what villian has. I would be tempted to put in a raise on the flop, or atleast a 2/3rds pot sized bet on the turn to see where I am at, if he calls I am check/folding the river and if he raises I would probably toss the hand barring other reads.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a good play - he calls you with a J, and folds everything else. You get no money from QQ/TT/99/88/crappy 6 if you play this way.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
if you are calling the flop you should not be folding the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a ridiculous statement. The A on the river - along with the three clubs and the two Js certainly make this a potential laydown. Villain is either bluffing or has an A/flush/J. Take a view and make a decision ... hero decided that discretion is the better part of valour.

I would probably have bet the turn, folded a raise, and checked behind if called (or folded a river bet if called).

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain shouldn't be betting the flop if he has a Jack so I'm pretty sure you have the best hand here. I raise the flop and then make a big bet on the turn. Villain either goes away, makes a bad call for all his chips on a draw or indeed shows you AJ and you can note his play for the future.

[/ QUOTE ]

I lead here often if I have a J. Villains who want to win big pots *should* be leading with a J. Although they should also bet the turn.

[NYCNative]

By shouldn't I should have typed "usually doesn't." Usually in the games I play, villain will check-raise or check-call slowplay flopping trips. In this case, usually means almost always.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
By shouldn't I should have typed "usually doesn't." Usually in the games I play, villain will check-raise or check-call slowplay flopping trips. In this case, usually means almost always.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, well then you have no reason to raise, as you likely hav the best hand (he has a lower PP or a big A or a J or maybe a 6. Raising pushes out all worse hands and gets action from a J (or 66).

Raising this flop is only good if villain will call with lots of worse hands than yours - which is highly unlikely.

Call the flop, but I bet the turn to protect, folding to a raise and playing real careful if Im called (if he bets then I call again).

[Macquarie]

I still reckon checking behind on the turn is a good play.

You say you bet the turn to protect? Protect from what? He is pretty unlikely to be on the backdoor flush. He has very few outs, and the extra bets you gain from a weak hand bluff-betting or calling a river value bet outweigh the few times (like this) that villain hits a card. Not to mention the times you are betting into someone with a jack.

I don't think we want to be building this pot.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
I still reckon checking behind on the turn is a good play.

You say you bet the turn to protect? Protect from what? He is pretty unlikely to be on the backdoor flush. He has very few outs, and the extra bets you gain from a weak hand bluff-betting or calling a river value bet outweigh the few times (like this) that villain hits a card. Not to mention the times you are betting into someone with a jack.

I don't think we want to be building this pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he bets the turn, then flat call is good.
If he checks then I think its fine to bet - as we really dont know what he has (he could easily have flush draw, Ax, 6, J, we have no idea). Thus we dont really know how many outs he has, and now there is a flush draw on board.
Betting protects our hand, and we can find out pretty cheap if we are good or not. Bet 20 at that board, fold a raise, and if he calls, then check behind the river (or fold a river bet).

Because we dont really know how many outs he has, then we wouldnt mind protecting here. If we *know* he has a weaker PP then checking is best - but he could have lots of things.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
If he checks then I think its fine to bet - as we really dont know what he has (he could easily have flush draw, Ax, 6, J, we have no idea).

[/ QUOTE ]
ok, Ax has 3 outs, a 6 has 2 outs, and a J means we're toast. a flush draw is possible i guess, but seems unlikely heads-up, particularly since it is backdoor. so why not induce a bluff? a free card doesn't seem very dangerous here.

[fuzzbox]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he checks then I think its fine to bet - as we really dont know what he has (he could easily have flush draw, Ax, 6, J, we have no idea).

[/ QUOTE ]
ok, Ax has 3 outs, a 6 has 2 outs, and a J means we're toast. a flush draw is possible i guess, but seems unlikely heads-up, particularly since it is backdoor. so why not induce a bluff? a free card doesn't seem very dangerous here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair point - and inducing a bluff here is not a bad choice.

However - since we dont *know* what villain has - cards we dont want to see are:

4*A + 3*6 + 7*clubs (A already included, and K is great)=14 cards.

Thats a fairly large numberof cards we dont want to see.

If we bet now, then we can avoid the problem that occurred on the river.

[sammy_g]

[ QUOTE ]
However - since we dont *know* what villain has - cards we dont want to see are:

4*A + 3*6 + 7*clubs (A already included, and K is great)=14 cards.

Thats a fairly large numberof cards we dont want to see.

[/ QUOTE ]
true, but the only one i would fold to on the river is an ace. if villain fires on one of the other cards, i'm confident i'm ahead more than one time in three, so i call.

the problem is that i just gave hands like TT 6 outs -- two tens to make a boat and four aces to bluff -- which is why i think i have to call the river no matter what if i check the turn.

i got what i wanted and folded.

[Rotating Rabbit]

hand played perfect but some questionable lines of thought in this thread.

you dont want to induce bluffs when villians hand is undefined but yours is face up. forget all this 'checking to induce bluff' nonsense, thats the wrong line of thought, this is way ahead way behind and all the annotations that accompany.

people dont tend to bluff preflop reraisers anyway.

villian clearly a moron.