about Mormons

[[censored]]

I've seen this brought up a few times on here and for the most part avoided the discussions.

I grew up going to an LDS church untilt the age of about 17 when I stopped going pretty much all together. I do however still retain much what was tought to me in my youth and much of my family still actively attends.

I know there are many misconceptions out because I have read them. For the purposes of this thread ask any questions of things you have heard or what not and I will try my best to explain what is really tought and why, if I can.

I am not going to try and defend the mormon church or get into a pissing match over what your friend who was mormon told you. If you had a bad experience or something I'm sorry. Also I am not got to bother trying to prove or agrue with you whether god exists or not. That is David's job. I understand many of you think religeon is silly but really I don't care either way.

Feel free to start with the underwear because I think that is weird as well.

also I didn't go to the SMP forum because I am hoping for a more light hearted thread talking about funny underwear and such.

[wacki]

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Feel free to start with the underwear because I think that is weird as well.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif


umm ok


Well I have a question. What is up with that guy who found that magic decoder ring? Is he more important than jeebus?

[usmfan]

So. If I'm Mormon and good and die, do I really get my own planet filled with virgins? If so, where does my wife go?

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
So. If I'm Mormon and good and die, do I really get my own planet filled with virgins? If so, where does my wife go?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there absolutely nothing like that. The bed rock of the Mormon religeon is that families are eternal and this is the prime reward for living a good life and going to Heaven.

[tonypaladino]

How accurate is the south park episode thats explains mormans???

All About the Mormons (http://www.tv.com/south-park/all-about-the-mormons/episode/286385/summary.html)

[[censored]]

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Well I have a question. What is up with that guy who found that magic decoder ring? Is he more important than jeebus?

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The Story goes like this, Joseph Smith was left feeling lacking from the various churches he was presented with. He then went and prayed to god, basically saying I feel as though none of these churches are true (as in one with god) God comes to him and basically says you're right, let me show you the right way. An angel leads J.S to the golden plates which can be translated into the Book or Mormon. Back in the day or Mormon I guess, English was not used, thus the plates needed to be translated, God provided Joseph Smith with the tool to do this translation. I don't remember what it was called.


Asking if Joseph Smith is more important than Jesus would be like asking a Catholic if the Pope is more important than Jesus. If that helps.

[[censored]]

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How accurate is the south park episode thats explains mormans???

All About the Mormons (http://www.tv.com/south-park/all-about-the-mormons/episode/286385/summary.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw the episode and for the most part is was accurate as long as you allow for the fact that it was used for humor and not meant to be a strict interpretation. My brother who does go to church saw it and thought it was pretty funny.

[PokerBob]

How does BYU keep their football players from drinking booze and banging white girls? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[PokerBob]

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If so, where does my wife go?

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Which one?

[Corey]

Can I really not go into a mormon church without bein a member?

If I were a mormon and wanted to attend a service not at my "home" church, is there some sort of card or something to get into another church?

[PoBoy321]

Why do so many of you guys wear white short sleeved shirts with black ties and black pants?

[[censored]]

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How does BYU keep their football players from drinking booze and banging white girls? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

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They don't. It happens. People even in the chruch make their own decisions. If they do not follow the code of conduct at the school they are asked to leave.

We have a non religeous school in Portland in which the students take a non drinking oath.

[ChoicestHops]

Dont the Mormons believe they are only the true church of Christ?

[[censored]]

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Can I really not go into a mormon church without bein a member?

If I were a mormon and wanted to attend a service not at my "home" church, is there some sort of card or something to get into another church?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes you would be welcomed. I'm sure at some point you would be invited to have some teachings from missionaries but if you made it clear that you did not want this, im am sure they would respect your wishes.

No members and non members are free to attend which ever location they choose. Most prefer to go to the one closest to home.

[[censored]]

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Why do so many of you guys wear white short sleeved shirts with black ties and black pants?

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That is the standard uniform of missionaries. It is a dress code and is intended to be as simple as possible while still being appropriate for the work involved.

[Corey]

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Can I really not go into a mormon church without bein a member?


[/ QUOTE ]

No members and non members are free to attend which ever location they choose. Most prefer to go to the one closest to home.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about "temples"? There was a huge near where I went to school in San Diego. From what I've heard, I guess they have weddings there and they are open only to members of the church. True?

[PokerBob]

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How does BYU keep their football players from drinking booze and banging white girls? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

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They don't. It happens. People even in the chruch make their own decisions. If they do not follow the code of conduct at the school they are asked to leave.

We have a non religeous school in Portland in which the students take a non drinking oath.

[/ QUOTE ]

How then, do they even field a team, as drinking and banging white girls is SOP for football players. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[[censored]]

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Dont the Mormons believe they are only the true church of Christ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes as does basically every other Church. They do not however believe that those of other Churches go to hell. Rather those that lived a good life will meet god and be presented with the truth.

In general the most important aspect of being Mormon is A) spreading the teachings of God, B) loving your family C) treating other with kindness.

[[censored]]

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Can I really not go into a mormon church without bein a member?


[/ QUOTE ]

No members and non members are free to attend which ever location they choose. Most prefer to go to the one closest to home.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about "temples"? There was a huge near where I went to school in San Diego. From what I've heard, I guess they have weddings there and they are open only to members of the church. True?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Temples are different from churches. Churches are for the worship services for members to gather for activities. Temples are "more holy" in that they are a place where the work of god in done. On such event is the sealing of a husband, wife and family. Doing this allows a family to "be together forever". Only members are allowed in a temple and those must first be interviewed by their Bishop "head of local church, where they are asked essentially are you following the teachings of the church.

An exmple of the differences would be that youth groups could gather at a church to play a game of basketball in the gym and little kids can run through the halls. There are no gyms and kids would not run in a temple.

[[censored]]

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How does BYU keep their football players from drinking booze and banging white girls? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't. It happens. People even in the chruch make their own decisions. If they do not follow the code of conduct at the school they are asked to leave.

We have a non religeous school in Portland in which the students take a non drinking oath.

[/ QUOTE ]

How then, do they even field a team, as drinking and banging white girls is SOP for football players. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They seem to do ok.

[PokerBob]

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How does BYU keep their football players from drinking booze and banging white girls? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

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They don't. It happens. People even in the chruch make their own decisions. If they do not follow the code of conduct at the school they are asked to leave.

We have a non religeous school in Portland in which the students take a non drinking oath.

[/ QUOTE ]

How then, do they even field a team, as drinking and banging white girls is SOP for football players. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They seem to do ok.

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I know, and I also know you don't have the answer, but I gotta believe if EVERY incident that violated the "code" was caught, there'd be nobody left.

[[censored]]

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If so, where does my wife go?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which one?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Mormon church no longer supports or believes in polygamy. There are some offspring churches or groups who still do but they are in no way supported or approved by the church.

As for the past you can look at it one of two ways. A) it was needed at the time as Mormons were generally outcasts who fled to utah and it was the only way to ensure their survival.

or man, even one who within the church was fallible and this was mistake.

In any event a teaching of the church is that members should comply with the law of the land so long as it does not conflict with god's law. or words to those affects.

when Utah wanted to be accepted into the U.S this was one of the conditions which they readily complied with.

I think if take a historical look an mankind, having multiple wives is not that out of the norm.

[[censored]]

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How does BYU keep their football players from drinking booze and banging white girls? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They don't. It happens. People even in the chruch make their own decisions. If they do not follow the code of conduct at the school they are asked to leave.

We have a non religeous school in Portland in which the students take a non drinking oath.

[/ QUOTE ]

How then, do they even field a team, as drinking and banging white girls is SOP for football players. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They seem to do ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, and I also know you don't have the answer, but I gotta believe if EVERY incident that violated the "code" was caught, there'd be nobody left.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am pretty sure that if the code is broken and known about the person is asked to leave. Also the members of the BYU football team tend be older and more often married then other schools. Many of the guys have returned from 2 year missions along with having lived their lives within the teachings of the church. I don't think it is that hard to believe that simply playing football would not change everything.

[PokerBob]

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In any event a teaching of the church is that members should comply with the law of the land so long as it does not conflict with god's law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this not basically a blank check to do whatever they want? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[[censored]]

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In any event a teaching of the church is that members should comply with the law of the land so long as it does not conflict with god's law.

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Is this not basically a blank check to do whatever they want? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

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You're bordering on idiocy at this point.

[PokerBob]

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In any event a teaching of the church is that members should comply with the law of the land so long as it does not conflict with god's law.

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Is this not basically a blank check to do whatever they want? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're bordering on idiocy at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, so to say I am bordering on it is a compliment. That line just makes me think of The wacko Muslims who spin the Koran into whatever they want, and thus can trump any law. Don't you see where this is dangerous? "I know this is illegal, but God's Law says we can do this so blahblahblah".

[trying2learn]

i dated a mormon girl for 5 years from high school to some of college - so i have a lot of background in this area.

the whole - if you're good you meet god thing - is half true accoding to what they believe.

heaven has a tier system (or so they are taught) and good, non-mormons would normally end up on tier three - which is somewhat equivalent to earth.



there's a lot of discussion to be had on this topic - and honestly - it makes my head hurt.


i ended up with this conclusion:

i think you'd be hard pressed to find a religion with a better family structure than LDS. the way they raise familys and build communities is really pretty amazing.

they're also almost all EXTEMELY nice and well meaning.


the problem is - this whole, "I know the Book of Mormon to be True." thing is where it starts to get a little scary and borderline cult-ish.

to each his own - but needless to say - i couldn't take the plunge for the girl. i'm sure she's very happy now with a former missionary with a bunch of kids and a very happy life though.

[[censored]]

My biggest problem with church growing up was that many (not all and not the best) members tended to want to cluster and only be social with other members. They tended to then exclude non members in who they were friends with. I not only found this to be at odds with core teachings of the church but also the opposite of how I was. I was friends with only a few members growing up and had many non member friends.

I will say that those people with what I percieved to have the strongest faith, felt the same way I did.

While it is no longer something I go to I am glad I had it as a kid, it kept me out of serious trouble and provided me a genuine compassion for others.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So. If I'm Mormon and good and die, do I really get my own planet filled with virgins? If so, where does my wife go?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there absolutely nothing like that. The bed rock of the Mormon religeon is that families are eternal and this is the prime reward for living a good life and going to Heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really expect people to give a credibility to what you say when you cant even spell religion?

[[censored]]

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[ QUOTE ]
So. If I'm Mormon and good and die, do I really get my own planet filled with virgins? If so, where does my wife go?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there absolutely nothing like that. The bed rock of the Mormon religeon is that families are eternal and this is the prime reward for living a good life and going to Heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really expect people to give a credibility to what you say when you cant even spell religion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do with it what you want, why would I care?

[RicktheRuler]

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So. If I'm Mormon and good and die, do I really get my own planet filled with virgins? If so, where does my wife go?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there absolutely nothing like that. The bed rock of the Mormon religeon is that families are eternal and this is the prime reward for living a good life and going to Heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really expect people to give a credibility to what you say when you cant even spell religion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do with it what you want, why would I care?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you start this thread?

Mormons are ridiculous, period.

[trying2learn]

BELIEVE me - I'm glad I dated her. She kept me out of trouble, and since we each cared for each other so much, it led me to investigate how I feel and believe - which is invaluable to me.


I think, unfortunately, (and this is where I hate this discussion going) most specific religion is a mess. Some are easier to poke holes in than others (I feel the LDS church is one of the easiest) - but at the end of the day - blind faith is something that people feel better with. So be it. As long as it isn't fundamental - it's probably harmless and a good thing. Whether it's true or not...well...

[Tron]

Things seem to be getting a little too serious, so I will bite... What's the deal with the underwear?

Also, are you really allowed to SIIHP?

[[censored]]

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Things seem to be getting a little too serious, so I will bite... What's the deal with the underwear?

Also, are you really allowed to SIIHP?

[/ QUOTE ]

#2 - No. But I have heard rumors (which may just be urban myths) that some Mormon girls in an effort to stay virgins would. I can tell you with 100% certainty that anyone within the church with 1/2 a brain would know this to be wrong. But these are teenage girls we are talking about so anything is possible.

#1. Honesly I don't know for sure, I didn't even know of its existance until a few years ago. My guess is it is an attempt to be as least revealing sexually as possible and to ensure that one's dress does become provacative.

I can say I not only never wore such a thing but had never even heard of them while going so I believe that is a practive of the few and not the many. Unless it is something started recently to deal with trends in underwear fashion.

I tried looking at a few sites but everything I came across seemed very baised and non informative.

[billyjex]

i used to bang a super hot mormon when i was 19. she was 16. but goddamn she was hot. then her family wouldn't let me see her because i wasn't mormon. but she was the sluttiest of the slutties.

[[censored]]

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i used to bang a super hot mormon when i was 19. she was 16. but goddamn she was hot. then her family wouldn't let me see her because i wasn't mormon. but she was the sluttiest of the slutties.

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Where did you live at the time?

[billyjex]

i lived in pismo beach, she lived in Santa Ynez (right by neverland ranch.) there's a decent mormon population there.

[[censored]]

Damn you're good but barely (http://www.ageofconsent.com/california.htm) was hoping to [censored] with you.

[billyjex]

that hot piece of ass was worth it.

[sam h]

A while back there was some controversy, maybe something that Rodman said before the Bulls-Jazz series about five years ago, about whether there were passages in the Book of Mormon that were racist or not. What was the deal with that?

[[censored]]

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A while back there was some controversy, maybe something that Rodman said before the Bulls-Jazz series about five years ago, about whether there were passages in the Book of Mormon that were racist or not. What was the deal with that?

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I had to search google for this but here's what I came up with.

The Book of Mormon tells the story of the Nephites and Lamanites who populated north america. Both are decendants of the same family and both of european heritage. The Nephites were good and Lamanites wicked. As the story goes God in order to seperate the two groups transformed the Lamanites into what we know as American Indians.

Dennis Rodman took this to mean that the Book of Mormon is saying that brown skin is curse from god and thus racist and so Mormons as a group are racist (that was the jist of what I found) .

I don't think that is quite fair. Putting aside that African Americans are not included as Lamanites, there is nothing in the Church doctrine that prejudges someone with dark skin as wicked, cursed, or a sinner.

I believe the Mormon church differs with other churches somewhat in that it believes man is not born with burden of sin from Adam or it's fathers. Thus everyone is born with an equal slate.

So while that particular aspect of the chruch may be offensive to some, I wouldn't consider the church to be racist.

Please don't ask me to attempt to debate the feasibility of those "origins" of American Indians.

[sexdrugsmoney]

Hi [censored],

Nice of you to answer these questions.

I've done a bit of backyard research into Mormonism and read a bit of the book of Mormon, and subsequently knew a Mormon in High School, but have one question.

The Mormon I knew in High School (technically she was a former Mormon) said that in the Baptismal process you have to wear all white and recite some words and if you make a mistake you have to start all over again on another day?

Is this true? (if so, why?)

Oh and another question:

IIRC Mormons believe when everybody dies the first person they see is the angel Moroni who offers non-Mormons the chance to be Mormons and enter into the lowest level of heaven.

The question I have is, does this only apply to persons who lived a "good" life, or is it universally applicable from everybody from the pious non-Mormon to the serial killer?

Many Thanks,
SDM

[[censored]]

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Hi [censored],

Nice of you to answer these questions.

I've done a bit of backyard research into Mormonism and read a bit of the book of Mormon, and subsequently knew a Mormon in High School, but have one question.

The Mormon I knew in High School (technically she was a former Mormon) said that in the Baptismal process you have to wear all white and recite some words and if you make a mistake you have to start all over again on another day?

Is this true? (if so, why?)

Many Thanks,
SDM

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I was baptized and can tell you what I recall. You do wear what are basically white robes made for this as does the person performing the baptism. There is of course the practical reason that it would be silly to wear your clothes and because it is an important and holy event, opening it up to bathing suits wouldn't really be practical. White as in most religions symbolizes a closeness to god.

The person being baptized doesn't say anything (most are 8 years old) , the one doing the baptism says a prayer which is probably 15-20 seconds long. nothing fancy.

There is a requirement that the person's body be fully submerged and if this doesn't occur, the prayer and baptism is done again. This isn't really a big deal, once in awhile a kid will stick his foot up or something, people chuckle, its redone, and everyone moves on.

The reason for this? By having it set out in very strict terms it prevents the entire ceremony from under going interpretation and being changed. For example if you didn't have the fully submerged clause then there is the risk that some areas could after time evolve the ceremony into something not in the spirit of the church teachings which come from basically John the Baptist.

[sexdrugsmoney]

Many Thanks [censored],

One other question if you please,

IIRC Mormons believe when everybody dies the first person they see is the angel Moroni who offers non-Mormons the chance to be Mormons and enter into the lowest level of heaven.

The question I have is, does this only apply to persons who lived a "good" life, or is it universally applicable from everybody from the pious non-Mormon to the serial killer? (an extreme granted, but nevertheless)

[[censored]]

I don't think that is quite right. I think Jesus is the first the dead see. He then accompanies you to your judgement with god. During which he also acts as your advocate duing the judegement. This judgement consists of a review of one's life and then a judgement based on that.

From there are two possible outcomes for people not of the church. The good go to "spirit paradise" a place desribed as immeasurable happiness. Here they wait for basically the end of world.

Some people because of leading wicked life will first go "spirit prison" where they will basically pay for their sins. The amount of time and what it consists of would vary for each person. This is not happy times. Spirit prison is also a place where one could get a second chance to learn about and accept god.

So at some point the world ends. This is where Heaven comes in. Like you said Mormons believe in 3 levels. The lowest level is described as a place where you would be so happy that you would never want to leave with each higher level being better. The top level or Heaven is the only place however where families are garunteed to be together for eternity.

In the Mormon religeon there are only 3 things that can get one into Hell. Which is opposite what most people believe about Mormons

they are
1) Taking of an innocent life
2) Denying the existance of god when he has revealed himself to you. This is different from someone denying a faith in god as it takes absolute knowledge to commit.
3) I do not recall the third one but it is very abstract and hard to commit. I believe it may have something to do with devil worship but in a way that goes far beyond what is generally encountered.

Thus within the Mormon church paying for one's sins and going to hell are two completely different events.

Basically the Mormon church believes that God A) loves you more than you could even believe possible and B) wants for you to be happy and live with him in Heaven, thus he doesn't go around throwing people in Hell often.

[[censored]]

I should add again that this all from memory so I could be wrong and wouldn't really be surpised. I do however think the general theme of what I wrote is almost certainly correct.

[Boris]

Is it true that mormon girls are more amenable to anal sex?

[TStoneMBD]

other than this john smith guy who says he was approached by god, is there any other evidence of the mormon beliefs to be real? so far it sounds like this one guy rewrote the bible and everyone just assumes that its not a sham. is that right?

[[censored]]

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other than this john smith guy who says he was approached by god, is there any other evidence of the mormon beliefs to be real? so far it sounds like this one guy rewrote the bible and everyone just assumes that its not a sham. is that right?

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Joseph Smith and I honestly don't know. My guess is that it is built mostly on faith. In what proportions than other religeons I have no idea. Also keep in mind that Mormons still believe the Bible to be a work of God and thus follow its contents as well. The Book of Mormon is considered an additional text God's teaching and for the most part is a "history" or story of people.

But back to your question I don't know. You could assume no.

[sexdrugsmoney]

[ QUOTE ]
other than this john smith guy who says he was approached by god, is there any other evidence of the mormon beliefs to be real? so far it sounds like this one guy rewrote the bible and everyone just assumes that its not a sham. is that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rewrote the bible? Yes and no. ([censored] please correct me if I am wrong)

Mormons consider the book of Mormon as "another testament of Jesus Christ" but from observation it does appear they value it more than the Christian Bible.

[[censored]]

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other than this john smith guy who says he was approached by god, is there any other evidence of the mormon beliefs to be real? so far it sounds like this one guy rewrote the bible and everyone just assumes that its not a sham. is that right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Rewrote the bible? Yes and no. ([censored] please correct me if I am wrong)

Mormons consider the book of Mormon as "another testament of Jesus Christ" but from observation it does appear they value it more than the Christian Bible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know perhaps. Both are taught in sunday school or whatever, missionaries carry both. But it certainly is the one thing that sets it apart from other faiths so from that perspective it gets more attention. I think valued is the wrong word as they would say both are of equal weight. However from a practical stand point, if you were to ask a Mormon about their faith, they more than likely are going to the book or mormon first.

It certainly is not a rewritten bible though.

[sam h]

Thanks Censored. I wasn't implying that Mormons were racist, just wondering what that controversy was all about. Just something that popped back into my head while reading the rest of the thread.

[jdl22]

I'm not mormon but my grandparents and some of my aunts and cousins are so I know a bit about it. My mom was actually baptised but doesn't really believe in it and hasn't gone for some time, though they still get missionaries going to their house more often than average.

The underwear are referred to as garments. here is a link (http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/temples/Garments_EOM.htm). As far as I know only people that were married in a temple wear them (I don't understand some of the language used in the link above, maybe people baptised or somehow otherwise ordained in a temple do as well). My cousin was married in a temple so she is supposed to wear them, but she's not really mormon she just did it for her parents and my grandparents so she doesn't wear them.

[JDErickson]

Censored,
I commend you on taking the time to try and answer a few things about Mormons, but I am afraid you are seriously mistaken on most of the answers you have given.

I think the reason you are giving these answers is that you were in the church when you were young and were not exposed to most of the "deep" doctrines in the church.

As a former card carrying "endowed" Mormon (who wore the "jammies") I can tell you that Polygamy has not been disavowed. It has been put on hold until after we die. It still is a requirement for entering the Celestial Kingdom. It is still listed in Doctrine and Covenants.

Also, Mormons do believe that if they live a worthy life they will have a chance to become a god of their own world the same way Jesus and God progressed to be "god" of this world. They both were lower beings like us at one time and progressed to their current position.

As far as the underwear go they have a much deeper meaning then most realise. They have 3 symbols on the breast, navel and knee that remind members of the covenants they make in the Temple and also the consequences of revealing these covenants.

The Temple Ceremony is something to save for another discussion but suffice it to say it is the most wacko thing you have ever seen.

In spite of all these strange beliefs and practices most Mormon people are great people. The Church youth program is also one of the best I have ever seen. I think if the church would be a little more open about their beliefs and admit that people are fallible and that their "prophets" sometimes taught wrong things they could improve their image.

[cnfuzzd]

when i was ~17ish, i went through a severe personal crisis, including such highlights as having my girlfriend say she was pregnant, choosing the abbortion route, having her miscarry, then figuring out she lied about the whole thing, as well as losing a close friend, and feeling just horrible about who i was. I had friends who were mormon, and became attracted to a mormon chick, so i joined. Next to cocaine, perhaps the single-most intense instant-gratification experience ive ever had. To this day ive never felt as loved, nor as compelled to love back. As for the cocaine, i fortunately chose the correct addiction to break.

peace

john nickle

[vulturesrow]

[ QUOTE ]
In spite of all these strange beliefs and practices most Mormon people are great people. The Church youth program is also one of the best I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

JD,
I completely agree with this. One of my best friends in high school, who is one of the only ones I still stay in touch with, was a Mormon. In fact his dad was a bishop or the bishop of the local LDS church. I went to many of their youth outings and I never got proselytized or pressured in any fashion. I dont think my friend belongs to the Mormon church any more though.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

Mormons are ridiculous, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eloquent.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In any event a teaching of the church is that members should comply with the law of the land so long as it does not conflict with god's law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this not basically a blank check to do whatever they want? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're bordering on idiocy at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, so to say I am bordering on it is a compliment. That line just makes me think of The wacko Muslims who spin the Koran into whatever they want, and thus can trump any law. Don't you see where this is dangerous? "I know this is illegal, but God's Law says we can do this so blahblahblah".

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, but I bring up a valid point. What is your response to this?

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In any event a teaching of the church is that members should comply with the law of the land so long as it does not conflict with god's law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this not basically a blank check to do whatever they want? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're bordering on idiocy at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, so to say I am bordering on it is a compliment. That line just makes me think of The wacko Muslims who spin the Koran into whatever they want, and thus can trump any law. Don't you see where this is dangerous? "I know this is illegal, but God's Law says we can do this so blahblahblah".

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, but I bring up a valid point. What is your response to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is in an idiotic question that has nothing to do specifically with the Mormon faith. You're point is anything but valid to those with common sense.

I am not going to argue the validity of religeon, go to smp for that.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In any event a teaching of the church is that members should comply with the law of the land so long as it does not conflict with god's law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this not basically a blank check to do whatever they want? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're bordering on idiocy at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, so to say I am bordering on it is a compliment. That line just makes me think of The wacko Muslims who spin the Koran into whatever they want, and thus can trump any law. Don't you see where this is dangerous? "I know this is illegal, but God's Law says we can do this so blahblahblah".

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, but I bring up a valid point. What is your response to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is in an idiotic question that has nothing to do specifically with the Mormon faith. You're point is anything but valid to those with common sense.

I am not going to argue the validity of religeon, go to smp for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has everything to do with the Mormon faith, since it is part of their doctrine. How do you not see that?

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In any event a teaching of the church is that members should comply with the law of the land so long as it does not conflict with god's law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this not basically a blank check to do whatever they want? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're bordering on idiocy at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, so to say I am bordering on it is a compliment. That line just makes me think of The wacko Muslims who spin the Koran into whatever they want, and thus can trump any law. Don't you see where this is dangerous? "I know this is illegal, but God's Law says we can do this so blahblahblah".

[/ QUOTE ]

I am an idiot, but I bring up a valid point. What is your response to this?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is in an idiotic question that has nothing to do specifically with the Mormon faith. You're point is anything but valid to those with common sense.

I am not going to argue the validity of religeon, go to smp for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It has everything to do with the Mormon faith, since it is part of their doctrine. How do you not see that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I'll answer the question and then we both will win.

#1 It applies to Mormon faith the same way asking me about the existance of Jesus does. It wasn't the point of the post and apparently everyone was able to understand that but you.

#2. Breaking the laws of State would still bring the punishment of the state. Thus assuming that one believes in god and after the life there would be no point inventing a "God's law" for sake of simply breaking the states law as this would not earn reward but rather additional consequences after death.

Thus Mormons or any people of faith have neither the incentive nor license to break any law they want.

How is this not obvious?

#3 37.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]


#1 It applies to Mormon faith the same way asking me about the existance of Jesus does. It wasn't the point of the post and apparently everyone was able to understand that but you.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

[ QUOTE ]


#2. Breaking the laws of State would still bring the punishment of the state. Thus assuming that one believes in god and after the life there would be no point inventing a "God's law" for sake of simply breaking the states law as this would not earn reward but rather additional consequences after death.

Thus Mormons or any people of faith have neither the incentive nor license to break any law they want.

How is this not obvious?


[/ QUOTE ]

It is obvious because people do it all the time. Muslims fly planes into buildings and claim they are doing god's work. They believe that they will be given 77 virgins and blahblahblah. Nutso Christians gun down abortion doctors. These people CLEARLY think that they are doing their god's work, and will justify it by saying that they can disregard man's law because it conflicts with god's law.

[ QUOTE ]


#3 37.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, I have no idea what you are talking about here.

[TStoneMBD]

omg bob, politics forum plz

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]

The Mormon church no longer supports or believes in polygamy. There are some offspring churches or groups who still do but they are in no way supported or approved by the church.

As for the past you can look at it one of two ways. A) it was needed at the time as Mormons were generally outcasts who fled to utah and it was the only way to ensure their survival.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry dude, you have this kind of backwards.

The reason the Mormons were driven out of several states and into Utah in the first place was because of their practice of polygamy.

See Wives of Joseph Smith.org (http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/home.htm)

(This is just a list of names and dates but since Smith was killed in Illinois, you get the idea.)

[OtisTheMarsupial]

OK, don't the morms have a heirarchy? Where god's message goes to man, then to his wife then to the children? And the men go to different rooms in the church? And if a woman disobeys her husband she's going to hell? And if you leave the church, you might be disowned by your family? And do they really own Coca-Cola? And if so, why if caffiene is bad? And what's up with these "guidelines" vs. rules? And why do we have so damn many of them in Sin City? And are they breeders, or what? What birth control is OK and what's banned? And how can I tell if someone's morm or norm? And what's up with the weird street numbering system in Salt Lake? And why do so many morms I know live with their parents? Even when they're married? And why do the women have to wear such ugly clothes?

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if take a historical look an mankind, having multiple wives is not that out of the norm.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not... but LDS is a very young religion. Polygamy wasn't accepted at the time morms practiced it. I think they did it sheerly to boost their numbers, make more morms, and keep the religion alive.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
The Book of Mormon tells the story of the Nephites and Lamanites who populated north america. Both are decendants of the same family and both of european heritage. The Nephites were good and Lamanites wicked. As the story goes God in order to seperate the two groups transformed the Lamanites into what we know as American Indians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Duh, the reason for this legend is so Mormons wouldn't feel guilty about stealing land away from Native Americans.
How the hell do you think they got Utah in the first place?

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
I think they did it sheerly to boost their numbers, make more morms, and keep the religion alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think they did it because Joseph Smith was one sick MF.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, don't the morms have a heirarchy? Where god's message goes to man, then to his wife then to the children?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mormons believe in a "priesthood" much in the same way the Catholic church does I believe. Women cannot receive the preisthood

[ QUOTE ]

And the men go to different rooms in the church?

[/ QUOTE ]


after a main meeting called the sacrement which is basically the same as typical church servive there is basically sunday school. Men with the priesthood have their own meeting and since women cannot get the priesthood they wouldn't go to these meetings. Growing and going to Sunday most of my classes included girls of my age. Some did not. This seperation however was not really a big deal and still doesnt seem like one to me know, thinking back on it.



[ QUOTE ]

And if a woman disobeys her husband she's going to hell? And if you leave the church, you might be disowned by your family?


[/ QUOTE ]
No on both accounts

[ QUOTE ]

And do they really own Coca-Cola? And if so, why if caffiene is bad?


[/ QUOTE ]
No Coca-Cola is publically owned and traded. Some mormons do not drink caffiene because it is not healthy for you much the same way most mormons do not smoke. Growing up my family drank pop/cola. Most of the mormon kids my age were not allowed to.

[ QUOTE ]

And what's up with these "guidelines" vs. rules?


[/ QUOTE ]
Guidlines called the word of wisdom which include not drinkinh alcohol or smoking are designed to help someone live a long a healthy life. Basically advice from God. However these are not sins. As a general rule the Mormon church spoke preached heavily about moderation and this would apply to things like work as well. Family life is a big deal in the church.

[ QUOTE ]

And why do we have so damn many of them in Sin City?


[/ QUOTE ]
Don't know what you are talking about

[ QUOTE ]

And are they breeders, or what? What birth control is OK and what's banned?


[/ QUOTE ]
Mormon's usually have larger families but birth control is not banned like in the Catholic church.


[ QUOTE ]

And how can I tell if someone's morm or norm?


[/ QUOTE ]
ask?

[ QUOTE ]

And what's up with the weird street numbering system in Salt Lake?

[/ QUOTE ]
never been there

[ QUOTE ]

And why do so many morms I know live with their parents? Even when they're married? And why do the women have to wear such ugly clothes?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know, very different from the ones I know. Many women wore some pretty kick ass dresses when I went.

Again this all from what I remember so I may be incorrect.

[PokerBob]

For some reason I seem to think that this Smith dude was a grave robber. I have no idea where this came from. Is there anything to this?

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
Mormons believe in a "priesthood" much in the same way the Catholic church does I believe. Women cannot receive the preisthood

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] that! sexist pigs!

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
This seperation however was not really a big deal and still doesnt seem like one to me know, thinking back on it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uh, you're male, right? So, no, it woudn't really affect you much, would it?
That's moronic.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
And why do we have so damn many of them in Sin City?



[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
Don't know what you are talking about

[/ QUOTE ]
Sin City, aka Las Vegas.

The reason is the same as why Utah gathered 'em. They just "pioneered" out here, killed some injuns, stole their land and set up camp to have many wives and mass produce their brainwashed kids.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mormons believe in a "priesthood" much in the same way the Catholic church does I believe. Women cannot receive the preisthood

[/ QUOTE ]

[censored] that! sexist pigs!

[/ QUOTE ]

Mormon women, while menstrating, were 'banished' to a special house until they were 'clean' again. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, mind you. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif But it ain't what you'd call 'progressive'.

BTW, my wife, while not an LDS member, is a direct decendant of Brigham Young. Her family still owns some of the original Mormon land in Utah. I only mention this because I know some of what I'm talking about, I'm not just foaming at the mouth.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

[ QUOTE ]
And what's up with the weird street numbering system in Salt Lake?




[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
never been there

[/ QUOTE ]
OMG, you need some serious LDS refresher courses.
Salt Lake City is centered around teh temple, so all the streets come out from the temple, like a pinwheel. The ring streets that circle the temple are numbered accordinng to how far they are from teh temple (how many steps or soemthing).

I just asked because it's an LDS FAQ and I wanted to know if it was steps or feet or meters or what.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think if take a historical look an mankind, having multiple wives is not that out of the norm.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it's not... but LDS is a very young religion. Polygamy wasn't accepted at the time morms practiced it. I think they did it sheerly to boost their numbers, make more morms, and keep the religion alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is another common fallacy. Joseph SMith started practicing it in secret then a few years later had a "revelation" that it now was a requirement for salvation. He was so embarassed he sent a friend to tell his real wife. She was pissed.

Joseph also married other mens wives and was known to send husbands on "missions" and then marry their wives while he was gone.

The BOM doesn'r mention Polygamy at all. It was added later, I suspect to feed a young leaders libido.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And what's up with the weird street numbering system in Salt Lake?




[/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ]
never been there

[/ QUOTE ]
OMG, you need some serious LDS refresher courses.
Salt Lake City is centered around teh temple, so all the streets come out from the temple, like a pinwheel. The ring streets that circle the temple are numbered accordinng to how far they are from teh temple (how many steps or soemthing).

I just asked because it's an LDS FAQ and I wanted to know if it was steps or feet or meters or what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Technicaly its blocks and its not a pin wheel its a square.

2000 South 4000 West is 20 blocks South and 40 blocks West of the Temple (approx)

Its the easiest road system I have ever seen.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
Mormon women, while menstrating, were 'banished' to a special house until they were 'clean' again. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, mind you. But it ain't what you'd call 'progressive'.

[/ QUOTE ]

THis is false. THey are wierd but not that wierd

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
No members and non members are free to attend which ever location they choose. Most prefer to go to the one closest to home.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is incorrect. A Bishop is given "keys" (spiritual powers sort of) to lead the Ward he is called to. If a person in his ward attends another ward then that Bishop does not have the "keys" for that person.

learned this while I was secretary in the Bishopric.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I really not go into a mormon church without bein a member?


[/ QUOTE ]

No members and non members are free to attend which ever location they choose. Most prefer to go to the one closest to home.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about "temples"? There was a huge near where I went to school in San Diego. From what I've heard, I guess they have weddings there and they are open only to members of the church. True?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best site to get details on what the Temple is about.

Mormon Temple Ceremonies (http://nowscape.com/mormon/mormcr1.htm)

And yes this is very accurate. There was a small change made to the Initiatory Ceremonies lately where the "shield" is sewed on on the sides instead of open (shield - a fold of cloth over your naked body). Also no physical touching is allowed now.

[ChipWrecked]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Mormon women, while menstrating, were 'banished' to a special house until they were 'clean' again. I'm not saying that's a bad idea, mind you. But it ain't what you'd call 'progressive'.

[/ QUOTE ]

THis is false. THey are wierd but not that wierd

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying they do it now. But they sure as hell did.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can I really not go into a mormon church without bein a member?


[/ QUOTE ]

No members and non members are free to attend which ever location they choose. Most prefer to go to the one closest to home.

[/ QUOTE ]

what about "temples"? There was a huge near where I went to school in San Diego. From what I've heard, I guess they have weddings there and they are open only to members of the church. True?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes Temples are different from churches. Churches are for the worship services for members to gather for activities. Temples are "more holy" in that they are a place where the work of god in done. On such event is the sealing of a husband, wife and family. Doing this allows a family to "be together forever". Only members are allowed in a temple and those must first be interviewed by their Bishop "head of local church, where they are asked essentially are you following the teachings of the church.

An exmple of the differences would be that youth groups could gather at a church to play a game of basketball in the gym and little kids can run through the halls. There are no gyms and kids would not run in a temple.

[/ QUOTE ]

And did you pay your 10% tithing. Thats a requirement to get to the highest level of heaven also

[udontknowmickey]

Cool post.

I've been meeting with some Mormon missionaries these past few weeks so I have a number of questions. I'm not trying to play stump the chump or anything, these are just things that have come up but I never fully understood. I understand completely if you don't know enough to answer (I should be doing my own research anyways).

1) Could you explain the whole baptism of the dead thing?
2) Could you explain how exactly Christ and his atonement fit in? From what I gathered it seems like it's grace mixed in with works, but it's a grace that we earn. Is that correct?
3) I seem to remember reading in the book of Mormon about God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit being one God. Yet Mormons are polytheists right? Did I just misread it? (do you have any idea what I'm talking about? I can't remember the direct reference)
4) Is it true that Mormons believe that Christ is a spirit-brother to Satan? Someone mentioned this to me and I was pretty "huh?"

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
A while back there was some controversy, maybe something that Rodman said before the Bulls-Jazz series about five years ago, about whether there were passages in the Book of Mormon that were racist or not. What was the deal with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes there were passages in the BOM that were racist. THey have been changed since Blacks were allowed to hold the Priesthood. One example: "white and delightsome" was changed to "pure and delightsome"

And by the way. The BOM was supposedly translated character by character via inspiration from god to JS. He would put his head into a hat with a special Seer stone in it or else wear glasses "Urim and Thummin" to see the characters God put there. When they were written correctly they would disappear.

THere have been over 5000 changes to the BOM since then. Lots of punctuation and spelling but also huge major doctrinal shifts.

So much for divine inspiration

[masse75]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i used to bang a super hot mormon when i was 19. she was 16. but goddamn she was hot. then her family wouldn't let me see her because i wasn't mormon. but she was the sluttiest of the slutties.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you live at the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

From what he says, sounds like he was living in her vagina.

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
Cool post.

I've been meeting with some Mormon missionaries these past few weeks so I have a number of questions. I'm not trying to play stump the chump or anything, these are just things that have come up but I never fully understood. I understand completely if you don't know enough to answer (I should be doing my own research anyways).

1) Could you explain the whole baptism of the dead thing?
2) Could you explain how exactly Christ and his atonement fit in? From what I gathered it seems like it's grace mixed in with works, but it's a grace that we earn. Is that correct?
3) I seem to remember reading in the book of Mormon about God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit being one God. Yet Mormons are polytheists right? Did I just misread it? (do you have any idea what I'm talking about? I can't remember the direct reference)
4) Is it true that Mormons believe that Christ is a spirit-brother to Satan? Someone mentioned this to me and I was pretty "huh?"

[/ QUOTE ]

1 - Mormons believe that everyone will have the chance to accept or deny Mormonism even if dead. Baptism for the Dead (or in proxy for someone dead) gives this person the chance to make that choice.

2 - Mormons belive that Works and Grace are both needed for salvation. Much different than most other "christian" religions that belive Grace alone saves.

3 - Father, Son and Holy Ghost are 3 seperate gods in the Mormon Religion. All have progressed from lower states to becomes the "gods" we worship on this planet

4 - Satan is Jesus' brother in the same sense that you are Jesus' "spiritual" brother. All souls are offspring of God the Father and his wives. Thus we are all brothers. Read this link that explains this more in depth

Mormon views on Jesus (http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/ldsleadersconceptofjesus.htm)

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
Cool post.

I've been meeting with some Mormon missionaries these past few weeks so I have a number of questions. I'm not trying to play stump the chump or anything, these are just things that have come up but I never fully understood. I understand completely if you don't know enough to answer (I should be doing my own research anyways).

1) Could you explain the whole baptism of the dead thing?
2) Could you explain how exactly Christ and his atonement fit in? From what I gathered it seems like it's grace mixed in with works, but it's a grace that we earn. Is that correct?
3) I seem to remember reading in the book of Mormon about God the Father, Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit being one God. Yet Mormons are polytheists right? Did I just misread it? (do you have any idea what I'm talking about? I can't remember the direct reference)
4) Is it true that Mormons believe that Christ is a spirit-brother to Satan? Someone mentioned this to me and I was pretty "huh?"

[/ QUOTE ]


1. Ya I am not exactly sure but I think basically in order to get into Heaven one needs to be baptised. This basically allows family members to have loved ones baptised post death. But honestly I never learned much about it.

2. I don't know what you mean by grace. Basically Christ paid the physical price for our sins. Whatever the new testament says about this applies (christ being the savior), I'm not real sure.

3. There is God, His son Jesus Christ and The Holy Ghost which basically acts as a conscience. I think Mormons differ from other faiths in that these are three seperate entities and not one in the same.

4.Yes that would be accurate, although I'm not sure if they are considered brothers in the way we think of the term. I think so, but I could be wrong. Basically there were two plans for people, Satans involved man having no free will and always doing "good" or Jesus's in which men had free will which would of course result in all commiting sins. yada Yada Yada war in Heaven, Satan is cast out and the general plan of salvation is laid out.

On an unrelated note I always equated Satan's plan of no free will but no sin with communism.

Again remember it has been more than 10years since I attended so I can only provide what I remember

[udontknowmickey]

Thanks!

(Fastest response EVER) That website is very interesting. (Though the redefinition of virgin is kind of weird)

[[censored]]

Ya all of these are pretty much what I remember.

[CrashPat]

On the weird underwear, it is obviously an attempt from the church to control the people. The "garments" are designed to come nearly to the elbows and extend below the knees. These are to be worn under a persons normal attire, under a woman's bra and panties for instance. Something about it is the closest thing to your skin and when you dress each day it reminds you of the vows you took when you were married.

As an outsider looking in I see it as a way to make sure that women dress plainly. No sleeveless or backless cocktail dresses can be worn, no short skirts, nothing to make a woman more enticing.

No wonder they need 1000 wives.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If I'm Mormon and good and die, do I really get my own planet filled with virgins? If so, where does my wife go?

[/ QUOTE ]

The bed rock of the Mormon religeon is that families are eternal and this is the prime reward for living a good life and going to Heaven.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really expect people to give a credibility to what you say when you cant even spell religion?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do with it what you want, why would I care?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why did you start this thread?

Mormons are ridiculous, period.

[/ QUOTE ]

Terrific dialogue. Are you all PUI ?

[B Dids]

As somebody who was raised in an environment basically devoid of religion, I'd just like to point out that you could have this thread about any religion and it would sound equally weird to the unaware.

Religion is [censored] weird.

[Hamish McBagpipe]

My sister married a Mormon, moved from Canada to the States, and she's now fully "converted" or whatever. As a way of life I don't have many beefs with it except that when my sister got married to the dude his folks could go to the ceremony because they were Mormon but my Mum couldn't go to her only daughters wedding because she was not a Mormon. Unacceptable. It was in some big temple in Pennsylvania. I didn't go.

[eastbay]

"The Book of Mormon tells the story of the Nephites and Lamanites who populated north america. Both are decendants of the same family and both of european heritage."

Since this has been shown to be factually false by DNA lineage which confirms that the American Indians are in fact Asians, and not of European heritage, will the people of the Church of LDS admit the entire basis of their religion is a fraud?

eastbay

[JDErickson]

[ QUOTE ]
The "garments" are designed to come nearly to the elbows and extend below the knees

[/ QUOTE ]

The Garment top is basically a Tshirt. Sleeves are a tad shorter than a regular tshirt to keep them from showing under a short sleeved shirt.

The bottoms come to just barely above the knee.

http://nowscape.com/mormon/undrwrmo-couple.jpg

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
My sister married a Mormon, moved from Canada to the States, and she's now fully "converted" or whatever. As a way of life I don't have many beefs with it except that when my sister got married to the dude his folks could go to the ceremony because they were Mormon but my Mum couldn't go to her only daughters wedding because she was not a Mormon. Unacceptable. It was in some big temple in Pennsylvania. I didn't go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most or many couples I think usually will have a seperate temple marriage followed by a traditional type wedding which includes all their friends and family. Sounds like your sister did not and I agree that would suck. Many Mormon families in my experience can be very unaware of the concerns of nonmembers within their circle.

[[censored]]

[ QUOTE ]
"The Book of Mormon tells the story of the Nephites and Lamanites who populated north america. Both are decendants of the same family and both of european heritage."

Since this has been shown to be factually false by DNA lineage which confirms that the American Indians are in fact Asians, and not of European heritage, will the people of the Church of LDS admit the entire basis of their religion is a fraud?

eastbay

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I don't know.

[eastbay]

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[ QUOTE ]
"The Book of Mormon tells the story of the Nephites and Lamanites who populated north america. Both are decendants of the same family and both of european heritage."

Since this has been shown to be factually false by DNA lineage which confirms that the American Indians are in fact Asians, and not of European heritage, will the people of the Church of LDS admit the entire basis of their religion is a fraud?

eastbay

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I don't know.

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Do you believe it is a fraud?

eastbay

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"The Book of Mormon tells the story of the Nephites and Lamanites who populated north america. Both are decendants of the same family and both of european heritage."

Since this has been shown to be factually false by DNA lineage which confirms that the American Indians are in fact Asians, and not of European heritage, will the people of the Church of LDS admit the entire basis of their religion is a fraud?

eastbay

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I don't know.

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Do you believe it is a fraud?

eastbay

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I don't care either way and I don't think it is important. To anyone outside I'm sure it would appear so and to those who attend I'm sure it doesn't.

Although many want to believe otherwise I can tell you that I know and have met many extremely intelligent people who are active in the church so it is not populated by a bunch of low IQ dupes.

I am of the opinion that the truth of any religeon of existance of god is unimportant in judging the worthyness or goodness of religeon. And in general I have a deep respect and admiration for all churches and the work its people do.

[eastbay]

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And in general I have a deep respect and admiration for all churches and the work its people do.

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You would respect a church which teaches people to believe things which are false?

From The Age of Reason, which expresses my own thought here better than I can:

"It is necessary to the happiness of man, that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.

It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?"

Isn't this the position that people that you describe as not being "low IQ dupes" are put in by teaching and purporting to believe things which are false?

eastbay

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And in general I have a deep respect and admiration for all churches and the work its people do.

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You would respect a church which teaches people to believe things which are false?


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I would make a judgement based on the totality on its deeds.

Also I am in way concerned with proving whether religeon is true or god exists. I am truly do not care either way. Some people for reasons I do not understand however, seem to be obsessed with it.

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It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind, as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the trade of a priest for the sake of gain, and, in order to qualify himself for that trade, he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this?"



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Also even if the church is based on a false history this simply has not proven to be the case. So yes there are many more things that appear to be destructive to morality than this.

[eastbay]

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And in general I have a deep respect and admiration for all churches and the work its people do.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would respect a church which teaches people to believe things which are false?


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I would make a judgement based on the totality on its deeds.


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How many good works are required to make up for teaching people to lie to themselves and to others?

In a more extreme context, how many poor does Hamas have to feed to make up for their suicide bombings?

In my view, no amount of feeding the poor "makes up for" murdering innocents, but this is exactly what Hamas defenders always point to, your concept of "totality of deeds." Now, teaching people some false fable about American history is obviously not as atrocious as murdering innocents. But the same concept applies. Teaching people to believe something which is false, is wrong and destructive to any reasonable notion of morality.

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Also I am in way concerned with proving whether religeon is true or god exists. I am truly do not care either way.

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You would entrust yourself to the teachings of people you knew to be teaching you things which were false? You would have others entrust themselves to these teachers which are teaching false things? And not be concerned one bit about it?

A man, once surrendering his reason, is like a ship without a rudder, and is the sport of every wind. -- Thomas Jefferson

eastbay

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I guess I don't equate teaching a religeon that preaches kindness to man even one based on a false history to blowing people up. The central aspects of the church have nothing to do with where the american indians came from.

Common sense tells me these acts are different and that what is being done does actually matter.

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You would entrust yourself to the teachings of people you knew to be teaching you things which were false? You would have others entrust themselves to these teachers which are teaching false things? And not be concerned one bit about it?



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I would my intellect and conscience to decide for myself the value of the message but I would not dismiss the entire work of teachings because one part of it was proved to be false. Especially when that part was central to how I would live my life which is the central aspect of all religeons.

Again common sense does play a part here. The golden rule is far different from go blow up civilans.

And again no I am not concerned about it.

[eastbay]

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I guess I don't equate teaching a religeon that preaches kindness to man even one based on a false history to blowing people up.


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I didn't equate them either, nor would you have to, to understand the point I was making.

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The central aspects of the church have nothing to do with where the american indians came from.


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Are you familiar with the concept of credibility? If the beliefs of the Mormon are based on the claims of Joseph Smith, and Joseph Smith can be shown to have claimed things by divine revelation which are factually false, isn't it reasonable to question other claims of Mr. Smith?

How can a person put faith in a source which has no credibility? Isn't that a very foolish thing to do?


eastbay

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Mormons would tell you that they are not putting their faith in Joseph Smith. In any event I would again say that most people are capable of looking at the message and teachings as a whole and are able to use common sense in deciding for themselves. They would probably look at what type of lives are being led and what kind of example being set by that person or persons.

I understood the point you were making and I am saying that because religeon has been misused does make religeon or those who follow it inherently bad. I believe we are capable at looking at the individual acts and deeds ourselves and making a judgement from there.

I think of religeon like I do a gun or a car.

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Also like I said from the get go, I am in no way concerned with trying to prove the "truth" of the Mormom religeon as I am A) not equipped to and B)do not care either way. People should make up their own minds with whatever methods they have available to them.

[eastbay]

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I would my intellect and conscience to decide for myself the value of the message but I would not dismiss the entire work of teachings because one part of it was proved to be false.

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That's fine, and I would certainly recommend that a person look at the tenets of as many religions as they can find time for, because there are probably nuggets of wisdom in all of them, that they would flourish for extended periods of time. I never claimed that Mormonism doesn't teach any good values, or doesn't have any good principles. I simply asked you if you believed, as I happen to believe, that its basis is fraudulent. You refused to answer, which I think is curious. Are you afraid of the truth?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but to be Mormon is to have faith that the Book of Mormon is a divine inspiration. Portions of the Book of Mormon were written by Joseph Smith. If it can be shown that some of Joseph Smith's supposed revelations were factually false, I think any reasonable person should question the authenticity of these divine revelations, and therefore cannot be a Mormon, because these questions of credibility are incompatible with such a faith. Therefore I think a reasonable person cannot be Mormon.

This is not to say that all Mormon principles are bad principles, or that the Book of Mormon teaches evil, or any silly thing like that which simply doesn't follow.

eastbay

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why is it curious, I am not a Mormon.

You stated that based on your knowledge the part I quoted was false. I have no idea if you are right and as I have said I have no idea even if my recollection is correct. Even If both are true I am still not capable of argueing one way or the other. Perhaps this has been discussed or covered by the church. I have no idea and what's more I personally am not concerned.

Thus my original answer of I don't know and I don't care either way seems pretty [censored]-ing reasonable to me.