HPFAP vs SSH

[kitaristi0]

I've been reading HPFAP, and came across an interesting part. On page 159, the authors say:

"[in a loose game where many players see the flop and play poorly after that]
1. Play more hands than you would if the players were better, especially in you can get in for a single bet. => ok, i agree.
2. Frequently keep it to a single bet before the flop more than most people think because you can gain a lot when bad players make incorrect calls on the flop and beyond, as long as the pot is kept small."

However, in SSH, Miller and co. are constantly advising us to raise, reraise and rereraise for value with pretty good but not great hands like K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif and A /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gif. This directly contradicts the second point in the HPFAP extract.

For example, in HPFAP the authors say you shouldn't raise with A /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif on the button after four people have limped, whereas in SSH AQ is a raising hand from any position.

My question then is, when playing small stakes hold 'em, which approach is better?

[Supern]

As always you have to consider who has raised or limped before you.

If two extremely tight players limped from early position I wouldn't raise with KQs. But if a couple of loose players also limped you may have equity for the raise.

Depending of course how tight the tight players are.
If they are extremly tight (VpIP ~ 10% and PFR ~ 2%) I wouldn't raise.
The risk of being dominated make a call better.

But if they have a PFR of 8% or more they would probably have raised if they had the hands that dominate your KQs. Which means that you can raise.

I think that most of the time you have equity in raising with these hands.
If you have very tight players at the table just change tables. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

But the re-rasing with these hands is another question. Do this only against loose players to isolate them. Against a tight raiser I fold AQ most of the times. If you play AQ you re-raise of course.

Sometimes I fold KQs and AJs as well against really tight raisers.
But that may be a bit on the tight side.
But I like to play tight as I multi-table. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

These are my thoughts but I am not a pro so if anyone disagree please reply.

[Mathieu]

HPFAP does recommend to raise with big suited cards in loose games because they play well in multiway pots.

When you raise before the flop you give away post flop expectation that comes from outplaying your opponents after the flop. But as stated in SSH, hands KQs and AJs have too much preflop equity edge over all these limpers that play garbage. By raising you make these hands (garbage) invest more dead money which will go to hands with an edge like AJs KQs etc...

There is a good explanation in SSH, Part five: Miscellaneous Topics - Building Big Pots Before the Flop (p. 237)

A hand like AQ does not have such a large edge in equity, so it is sometimes better to just limp with it (SSH does address this) so that you can outplay your opponents after the flop. This is more true if your opponents play decent starting hands.

But here again, if your opponents are limping with absolute garbage, your edge may be too large not too push.

You ask what approach is better with AQ. I think it depends alot on the players who entered the pot, what they play, and how they play after the flop.

[JackThree]

hpfap was written for a different type of game, so follow ssh's advice

[Matt R.]

I think the difference in the two is the quality of preflop play by your opponents. In the game described by HPFAP, I would assume the players are, on average, still very good preflop players. In other words, they limp with hands that play well in multiway pots. In a game where it's not often raised preflop, this strategy is good. However, in the games described in Miller's book, the players aren't just loose preflop, they're just plain bad. They'll play total crap like any two suited or any offsuit face cards. That's why it's profitable to raise a lot preflop with good, but not great, hands against these players. Even though the games at higher limits may still be loose preflop, they're still playing hands that can flop really well -- so you should often forego these really small equity edges in favor of seeing the flop cheaply.

[Ed Miller]

I agree with Mathieu.

This is a tricky concept that has troubled people for a while. I think it's great that a fair number of people now understand it and explain it quite well. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[SNOWBALL138]

[ QUOTE ]
They'll play total crap like any two suited or any offsuit face cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are being too generous. I see people play 7-4offsuit, 84offsuit, 9-3 offsuit in early and middle positions at my local casino. When people are coming in with hands like this, its almost as though they are putting money in the pot without having cards.

OTOH, internet play is not nearly as poor.

[PJS]

kitaristi0. If you go to page 10 in SSHE, title "using this book", you will notice a brief discussion on the difference between the two books.

[Niediam]

Going by that logic it would seem that it would be correct to limp with AQo in LP in most online games including some of the microlimits that I have played. The player's seem generally bad but do not limp in with complete garbage hands. Anybody have any thoughts on this?

[Steve00007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They'll play total crap like any two suited or any offsuit face cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are being too generous. I see people play 7-4offsuit, 84offsuit, 9-3 offsuit in early and middle positions at my local casino. When people are coming in with hands like this, its almost as though they are putting money in the pot without having cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly agree. There are poker players who literally never fold before the flop, and many will continue to call after the flop when it's obvious that they're beat. Some people don't even consider the possibility that several other hands might be better than theirs, even if they have a hand like 3-7 offsuit.

Recently, a bad player criticized me for folding a pair of aces when I thought I was beat (this was after the flop). His reasoning was "It's a seven card game."