Another Full Ring-Specific Typical Multiway Situation

[sthief09]

don't think reads really matter much here, other than that the turn bettor is pretty typical, like 35/10/1.5

and what about preflop? I just completely forgot how to play. I can call there against an 8 PFR guy right?


Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

[Moneyline]

EDIT: I originally misread your post and thought you were on the button. I have changed my original response.

Preflop: With 3 players in I think calling with QJs is the right move.

Flop: I would bet out, hoping that the preflop raiser to my left would raise to force out other hands. Without a raise, I can confidently put him on having missed his hand.

I don't think this is a good spot to check to the raiser on the flop.

[ArturiusX]

I don't think check-raising this flop does anything for us, with our terrible relative position. No ones folding except maybe the BB.

And since no ones folding, I'd like to see a cheap turn card to decide what to do. I like it all.

[mr pink]

my line would be to lead into the preflop raiser. from these last few posts, it seems like you're thinking that if your flop bet gets raised that you're always behind to an overpair and drawing to 5 outs. i just don't think that's always the case.

[Jake (The Snake)]

Would it be horrible to just bet out on the flop? Maybe hoping UTG+1 raises and limits the field for us?

Edit: Missed that it's 30/60. I still think betting out has merit though.

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
And since no ones folding,

[/ QUOTE ]

why's that?

[Moneyline]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think check-raising this flop does anything for us, with our terrible relative position. No ones folding except maybe the BB.

And since no ones folding, I'd like to see a cheap turn card to decide what to do. I like it all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I misread the hand and thought he was on the button. I have changed my original response.

[ArturiusX]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And since no ones folding,

[/ QUOTE ]

why's that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Arg, didnt see it was 30/60 not 3/6. Small stakes I dont think many hands fold after calling the bet to a check-raise, except maybe the BB. The board has a few draws in it (although I wouldnt call it draw heavy) and overcards will probably continue anyway.

[Jeff W]

I think reads matter here. If UTG+1 is likely to raise my flop bet, I lead.

[mr pink]

ohh, nevermind. i misread your post. yeah, i doubt anyone's folding to a flop check/raise too. i thought you were meaning that the pot was big enough that hero couldn't protect it by getting utg to raise a flop bet, which is the line i was suggesting.

[molawn2mo]

fwiw (from a 5/10 player)...

pf works
don't we want to bet out the flop with the hope that utg1 raises to clear the field?

as played, on the turn, i want to say bet out - under the same theory as stated above - but, MP3's lead allowing you to face the field calling 2 cold is superb. why not lead the turn?

not getting 3 bet on the turn makes the river an easy value bet, imho.

[hicherbie]

hiya stheif...what part of the hand is in question here? this line seems perfect if you think your hand is best (and vulnerable) on the flop.

and with a likely 5 handed pot, the pf call is standard?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I think reads matter here. If UTG+1 is likely to raise my flop bet, I lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think that either line is acceptable.

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think reads matter here. If UTG+1 is likely to raise my flop bet, I lead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think that either line is acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the arguments for both betting and checking the flop.

My question is what happens if we bet the flop and UTG+1 raises, clearing out everyone else? It seems like this is what we're hoping for, but how do we play the turn in that case?

Bet and fold? Check and call down?

Something in me really doesn't want to check the turn, especially when the third club hits, no matter how many opponents I have.

[sthief09]

PFR was 23/10/1.6 with a 1.8 flop AF over 1800 hands

the way I see it is:

the pot is big. if I lead into the PFR he'll probably raise but what good does that do me? often he won't clear the field out for me. most of the hands I really fear are right to call anyway. often if I'm ahead he'll have both overcards so if he raises, the gut shots and bottom pair type hands can call. he's also right in the middle of 5 people. checking also gives me an opportunty to gather some informationa nd see what they want to do. when everyone calls it's an easy call. if everyone folded I could've raised. check-raising faces one person with 2 bets, and betting out only helps clear out an extra one.

I was really concerned on the turn when the card fell. at the time I was a little made at myself for not giving any action on the flop because I think any of the Party games 10/20 and up I'm gonna be facing 2 cold a LOT here, and a nice chunk of the time the raiser will have a worse hand than me.

and also check-calling lets me fold out a potential 6 outer in the PFR, or at least force him to maek a horrendous call. I can't imagine this ever getting checked through but I suppose it's possible.

so it worked out better than I could have possibly expected, but I wonder what I would've done if the PFR checked and there was a bet and raise. I supposed I'd have to fold there but I'd be giving up outs and the best hand some % of the time. giving action on the flop via a bet does help establish my hand and kinda discourage people from making one of those "if no one wants it, I'll take it" semibluff+weak made hand raises with a hand like 8c8x or Kc7x or just a naked Ac since they know the chances of taking it down are low.

I'm really not sure here. I like getting cute in these spots. I think someone told mt Tommy calls it a "check and feel." from a hand reading perspective I think this is better in most ways, but I wonder if I'm giving up too much hand protection ability

[sthief09]

given the frequency that UTG+1 raises the flop, you almost always have to see a showdown headsup barring an A

[cold_cash]

[ QUOTE ]
given the frequency that UTG+1 raises the flop, you almost always have to see a showdown headsup barring an A

[/ QUOTE ]

That's kind of what I figured, but does that mean you check and call, and run the risk of having the turn checked through with that board? (In the heads-up scenario.)

It just seems like by leading the flop and getting it heads up you turn it into a "win the least, lose the most" type of situation on the later streets.

If he's got AK or AQ (with or without a club draw) he can check behind on the turn, and fold to your river bet if he misses. If he's got an over-pair he can value bet all the way.

[sthief09]

yeah those are the reverse implied odds inherent in being out of position. but there's money in the pot. the reverse implied odds only shrink it for me. it's still big and I have top pair.

[Trix]

zzz /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[sthief09]

bump