Stud 8 hand: too timid w/trip Kings?

[Fraubump]

Stud 8 $2/4 .25 ante $1 bring-in $2 completion

I'm dealt trip kings, another king is on the board. No aces showing. I raise when it gets around to me and am left against two hands, both of whom called the bring-in before me and then my raise. Sorry I don't have complete card info: ACR hand-histories don't show boards (they're working on fixing that).

KK/K
xx/J
xx/7

4th

KK/KQ
xx/J4
xx/74

I bet, both call.

5th

KK/KQ4
xx/Jc49c
xx/7432

I bet, J calls, low raises, I call. Is this a good move, or reraise? J's board is not too scary, so it's unclear to me whether to risk driving him out with the reraise or to keep him along. He is a pretty solid player, though when the hand was shown down I was surprised he'd played it.

6th

KK/KQ45
xx/Jc49cA
xx/7432

AJ checks, low bets, call, call. Again, is this too timid. I have some slight worries about trip aces, but don't think he'd have played the hand that way if he had pocket aces. What I'm mostly worried about is low straight. And again, do I jam and risk worse high folding?

7th:

KK/KQ457

AJ checks, low bets, I call, AJ Raises, low probably errs by not jamming it. I consider raising, but am afraid I'm beat now. So I call. Given his board it is hard to put him on any hand at all, so trip aces or a flush don't seem impossible. Worse three of a kind also seems possible. Hard to put him on boat.

Revealed hands:

Ac 6c/ Jc 4h 9c As/ 6s
5s 2s/ 7h 4s 3h 2c/ 7d

So High was on a flush draw, which was a surprise, though I guess 3 low w/3 flush on 4th is not terrible.

In any case, my general question is was my play too timid: should I have been jamming at every opportunity or at least until 7th? At what point do you want to just get rid of drawouts vs. keeping them along for payoff? Do odds of filling compensate for risk of string-along?

[Fraubump]

[Andy B]

I was going to respond before, but I'm at least as confused as you are. I never know what to do in this game anymore. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

When you jam with the low hand, you're laying 2:1 that you will win your half of the pot. Obviously, if 743 has the straight made, you're a dog to win your half of the pot. You were surprised that the guy with the Jack in the door was on a flush draw. You shouldn't have been. If someone who is playing at all well limps in with a Jack in the door, his most likely hand, by far, is a three-flush. When he catches a small off-suit card and calls a bet, he probably has a three-card low to go with his three-card flush. This is especially true when you're betting an obvious high hand and there appears to be a pretty good low hand left to act. This is precisely what I had him on when I was reading your post. If he's a monkey who routinely shows down hands like Nines-up and Queen-high straights, you're not going to be able to peg him so accurately, but I think that a flush draw should strike you as a likely hand, especially when he calls with the 9/forums/images/icons/club.gif on fifth street. What the hell else can he have? Raising on fifth and sixth streets has two potential advantages. One, you can charge the flush draw to draw out on you. Two, you just might knock him out, which increases your chances of winning your half of the pot. This is especially nice if your full house cards are somewhat dead. The disadvantage, though, is that you are giving the low hand a bunch of money when he has the straight made. This is bad, but you can always fill up*, so while it costs you a bit, I don't think it is quite as bad as the other scenario is good, so I lean towards raising. Unfortunately, this helps the low hand more than it helps you (unless he isn't there yet). I think that your line is defensible. If the J49 guy can be in there with garbage, you don't want to knock him out. You said he's fairly solid, though, so I think you should either charge him or knock him out. By the end, when you don't fill, I think you go into check-call mode.

The other guy's check-raise on the end with Aces-up was perhaps a trifle optimistic, but you hadn't shown any real strength since about fourth street, so he probably couldn't put you on anything better than Kings-up. Perhaps he was able to account for another Six, or a lot of Fives, in which case he could be reasonably sure that the low hand didn't have a straight. I think that the low was correct to go for the overcall in this instance.

* I remember a similar hand where I rivered quad Kings. Everyone assumed I was jamming with a flush. I just figured that the low hand wasn't that likely to have the six-high straight. He got shut out, by the way.

[Robk]

Frau I could probably give you a good analysis of the other players thoughts if you told me their handles. You missed your spot on 5th IMO, as the flush read should have been obvious (again, if this is the player I think it is) and you want him paying to see those cards. Waiting until 6 (and seeing if his card hits) is ok too, but jam it there, especially since that A might have made him a pair that he thinks could be good if he catches another small pair. Everyone on ACR is petrified of jamming for some reason lol.

[Fraubump]

Thanks for the replies. The guy on the flush draw was Jackstraw, who is solid, but doesn't play a ton of hi-lo stud from what I've seen (hi-lo omaha seems to be his primary game). You're both right that the flush draw should have been obvious. My reasoning was only that this player usually is pretty tight and I wouldn't have played the hand. 3 flushes with 2 lows are borderline to me. I'll play them once in a while from late position with an ace with callers, but usually not with the banana showing. I want my flush disguised as a low as often as possible.

[Andy B]

I grant you that there are better hands, but the only circumstances under which I'm going to fold (A/forums/images/icons/club.gif 6/forums/images/icons/club.gif) J/forums/images/icons/club.gif are

(1) my hand is dead.

or

(2) it's two bets to me, especially if it looks like the pot is going to be short-handed.

It may be obvious that you're on a flush draw. So what? If your low materializes, that will be deceptive. This is a hand you should usually play.

[Fraubump]

>>(Ac 6c) Jc This is a hand you should usually play.

Thanks. I'll take it under advisement. This may be a case of anecdotal evidence obscuring logic: I haven't had much success with this kind of hand.

[Robk]

Sorry Frau but I have never played with jackstraw so I can't give you any insight.

[Walter]

I would jam on fifth street when there is still a chance that the low is drawing, but with four low cards on the board and no dead 8s, 6s, and only one dead 5 and one dead ace, the chance of him having a made low is extremely high, especially since he called your raise on 3rd street, which makes it likely that he had something like 7xA or 678 (the fact that he did not have either of these hands doesn't mean that the assumption is wrong).

Once he has a made low, then you have to decide if (1) you can get the other player going high out and (2) if you want to get that player out.

(1) Can you get the other player out?
He called your bet on 5th street with a possible low, knowing that a raise was likely. So he must have a pretty good holding, either a 4-flush with a backdoor low or 9TJQ with a 3-flush. Given your board, he probably will keep calling you, b/c at best, you have trips, and one of your kings is dead, as are two of your fours.

(2) Do you want to get the other player out?
If your cards were live, you are ahead and you are drawing better than he is, so it is not clear that it is worth it to put in a bunch of big bets to protect your 1/2 interest in the pot.

If your cards are dead, you want the other player out, but the other player knows that, and will play with you.

On the river, you are in a tough place. You are likely to get raised and (and then possibly reraised) by the made low (and the potentially better high). In most instances, the other player going high will also be afraid of a wheel or a low straight, so he won't raise the low unless he can beat that hand, unless he is making a play for 1/2 the pot (see below). By my count, there is $50 in the pot prior to the river betting. With no further raises, you are risking $8 to win $37. With two more raises, you are risking $16 to win $49.

But then his raise should raise suspicion. Why, if he has you beat, does he want to drive you out? That only costs him money. That looks more like a play to drive out Kings Up by exposing you to the possibility of four bets than a value bet. So maybe you are right to call because you think he is making a move.

[Ray Zee]

when deciding to raise you need to consider all the possibilites they may have. what if he had small trips. then you certainly would want to put pressure on the hand. even if he had a low. the pot was getting big and do you want someone else to pick you off with some flush or low straight deveolping.
there hasnt been anyplay that showed you were playing for only half for sure. around fifth street you maybe would want to put in two more bets to get the jack nine out or make him pay as you figure to be around two to one favorite anyway over him. if you run into a straight you lose part of a few bets. so what? and if you still have the whole pot won at this point you will pull in extra vig.