Not raising AQ offsuit on the button.

[Lawrence Ng]

Played a local 4-8 game 2 days ago. It was perhaps the most loose-passive game ever. Hardly a raise preflop.

After 5 limpers came in I had AQ offsuit on the button and raised....

Then something inside of me struck:

In HPFAP, page 161 Sklanksy states -

Suppose you start with A /images/graemlins/club.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

You should not raise with this hand in many siutations because of a variety of reasons. First, you give your hand away. Second, let's say 4 people limp in and you are on the button. You should probably not raise. Now let's say the flop comes:

T /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/club.gif2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

.... And by not raising you are more likely to have someone bet into you, and if you do flop an ace or a queen you can raise and force people who would otherwise have called, getting their price.

One of the problems with raisng with this hand is that everyone checks to you on the flop, you bet (assuming you make a pair), and they are getting the proper price to call you with middle or bottom pair (assuming they have a different kicker) So they are no longer making a mistake on the flop when they call you.

However on page 83 of SSHE, Ed Miller states in his chart that if a player is one off the button or on the button that they should raise AQ offsuit.

So should I raise AQ in late position in a loose game or not?

Lawrence

[poker-penguin]

5 limpers? This is a game where SSH > HFAP.

The books are dealing with different styles of games.

My feel is definately raise AQ, until you're playing in the kind of game that HFAP was talking about.

[dozer]

I don't think HPFAP applies to the loose local 4-8 games. It is assuming the players that limp are decent players that make good decisions postflop, so by limping the AQ you can induce more mistakes by keeping the pot small.

SSHE is for loose games so I would follow the advice in SSHE in this case. The players already play horrible post flop no matter the size of the pot, so you lose a lot of Sklansky bucks by not raising this preflop.

[sy_or_bust]

You might find this discussion interesting:

raise jacks out of the small blind? (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=&Number=301785&page=&view= &sb=5&o=&fpart=all)

A ways down it turns into Clarkmeister (and Ed Miller, if I recall) criticizing Sklansky's advice here (as it applies to loose low limit games) and advocating a raise with hands like AQ.

[SmileyEH]

Your opponents have to be decent for this advice to apply.

-SmileyEH

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE is for loose games so I would follow the advice in SSHE in this case. The players already play horrible post flop no matter the size of the pot, so you lose a lot of Sklansky bucks by not raising this preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I believe. They are horrible, chasing gutshotsm two pairs, runner runner with horrible odds. I figure if they are going to chase with horrible odds, and make such horrendous mistakes, that they should pay more for doing so.

Lawrence

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opponents have to be decent for this advice to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes for: The deception portion of the advice

No for: pretty much everything else. Reread the advice, and you will realize that you actually WANT your opponents to be bad for the advice to apply.

[RatFink]

As mentioned, the play is recommended differently in multiple texts. Super System II has a discussion recommending limping along.

My personal favorite discussion of it is from Abdul Jahib.

http://web.archive.org/web/20030603185742/www.posev.com/poker/holdem/strategy/preflop-abdul.html

[ QUOTE ]
Example: You are facing five loose limpers and you are on the button. How do you play your hand?


QQ
Raise. You will win the pot more than your fair share, though < 50%.

55
Call. About 8-way to flop, but it will win less than 1 in 8 times.

ATs
Raise. Big suited's win more than their fair share in multiway pots.

76s
Raise. Even suited zero gappers win more than their fair share here.

AQ
Raise. Your hand is likely best, by far.

JT
Fold. If you want to play offsuit cards, you must have the best.



It is a myth that hands like AQ are in trouble here. You are in trouble if you don't raise, but if you raise you wreck the implied odds of the suited garbage your opponents hold. AQ frequently wins even in family pots by making aces up with queen kicker or an AKQJT straight. Also, your cards have a better chance of being live if no one raised, so you will win the pot considerably more than your fair share of the time. Similarly, if you were likely to have the highest hand with something like KJ or even KT, you should raise here, again partially for win share, partially to wreck the implied odds of your opponents. However, if you make a mistake by usually laying down AQ on flop that misses even though you believed you had the best hand preflop then perhaps you would be better off playing incorrectly preflop by not raising. Another exception could be made if your opponents will "check to the raiser" if and only if the flop contains an ace, king, or queen


[/ QUOTE ]

[oreogod]

It is intresting that the charts in King Yaos book reccomend raising AQo against two limpers, but calling against more. Im assuming it is because the book is geared towards games where ppl play a little better.

[Lmn55d]

[ QUOTE ]
Reread the advice, and you will realize that you actually WANT your opponents to be bad for the advice to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

no you don't. Limping AQo is good if two things are true. First, your opponents are only limping solid hands and not hands like J4s, 89o, etc. as they are in low-mid limit online games and the game in question I assume. If this is the case, your equity is lower and your immediate preflop EV gain from raising is likewise lower. Second, limping and keeping the pot small will cause your opponents to make a lot more mistakes than they otherwise would. Bad opponents will make mistakes anyway. In the game described by OP, you should definitely raise AQo.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reread the advice, and you will realize that you actually WANT your opponents to be bad for the advice to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

no you don't. Limping AQo is good if two things are true. First, your opponents are only limping solid hands and not hands like J4s, 89o, etc. as they are in low-mid limit online games and the game in question I assume. If this is the case, your equity is lower and your immediate preflop EV gain from raising is likewise lower. Second, limping and keeping the pot small will cause your opponents to make a lot more mistakes than they otherwise would. Bad opponents will make mistakes anyway. In the game described by OP, you should definitely raise AQo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Increasing the size of the pot makes their mistakes less incorrect.

[oreogod]

low limit or higher limits...if u have say 3 really solid players limping (1 early, 2 in middle) along with one passive/loose limper, I think limping here with AQo is fine.

I think 3/6 to .5/1 its usually a raise...mix in some 5/10 as well (depends on the game and players).

[Lmn55d]

yes, thats true. You lose postflop expectation. But the point is you don't lose as much postflop expectation as if the players were good. The postflop expectation you loose in the loose game is more than made up for the immediate EV gain of raising preflop, which is also more than the preflop EV gain in a tight game.

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Reread the advice, and you will realize that you actually WANT your opponents to be bad for the advice to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

no you don't. Limping AQo is good if two things are true. First, your opponents are only limping solid hands and not hands like J4s, 89o, etc. as they are in low-mid limit online games and the game in question I assume. If this is the case, your equity is lower and your immediate preflop EV gain from raising is likewise lower. Second, limping and keeping the pot small will cause your opponents to make a lot more mistakes than they otherwise would. Bad opponents will make mistakes anyway. In the game described by OP, you should definitely raise AQo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Increasing the size of the pot makes their mistakes less incorrect.

[/ QUOTE ]

They already made a mistake and your EV here IS higher than theirs. The effective odds you are giving them is much worse if u just call.

If OP said 3 TAGs and a Passive limped, then limp.

[Mike Gallo]

Excellent question.

So should I raise AQ in late position in a loose game or not?

In the situation you stated I use game theory to decide. Two red or black offsuit AQ and I raise. If its an interracial hand I limp. Sometimes I do the reverse. Interracial and I raise, same I call.

I dont always raise with AQ from the button either.

[hicherbie]

well, i agree. not raising against people who will limp with anything is leaving money at the table. if two/more of the 5 are TAGgier players i think a limp is fine.

for HEFAP i think loose only means loose before the flop (you expect good players that play very marginal hands to still understand pot odds etc). for SSHE, loose usually means loose before the flop and stupid every street after. so controlling the pot matters a little less i think. in most lower limit games this is definatly the latter.

what do you guys think of raising TT/99/88/77 on the button in one of these games? assume 5 or more limpers.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Bad opponents will make mistakes anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to imply that you think good opponents are making mistakes.

They arent (at least not pot odds type mistakes). Remember THEY ARE GOOD.


[ QUOTE ]
In the game described by OP, you should definitely raise AQo.

[/ QUOTE ]


I never said you shouldnt.


Here is my point:


If you are playing with a bunch of GOOD players, then keeping the pot small makes negative sense. They arent going to be making pot odds errors postflop. If they need 8:1, then arent going to take 4:1. GOOD PLAYERS THINK ABOUT ODDS!!!


BUT.. if ou are playing bad players, who arent going to think about the pot odds, then why set them up to NOT make mistakes?


(Note: again, IMO, this is a raise. Because we have WAY too much preflop equity to pass it up. My statement was simply: you DONT need good opponenents for the "limp to keep the pot small" concept to apply. You'd prefer bad opponents.)

[Luv2DriveTT]

[ QUOTE ]
It is interesting that the charts in King Yao's book recomend raising AQo against two limpers, but calling against more. Im assuming it is because the book is geared towards games where ppl play a little better.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would assume its because King Yao is a good author and parts of his book are excellent, but he did not have the expert team you will find with 2+2 checking and re-checking theory before publication. A lot of his book is re-worked HPFAP theory in a better written format, except he may not have been privy to some of the more recent advanced theory that as been discussed here at the 2+2 boards or even within SSHE.
Please don't miss-read my response as if to say KY's book is not good, in fact I think its a must own for each of our collections. But that doesn't mean its flawless, I have found a few small flaws.

TT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Lawrence Ng]

Well tonight I played another 4-8 live game, and picked up AQ offsuit on the button 4 times. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I raised each time as it was constantly 6-8 way action with guys limping from everything you can think of. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks guys!

Lawrence

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your opponents have to be decent for this advice to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes for: The deception portion of the advice

No for: pretty much everything else. Reread the advice, and you will realize that you actually WANT your opponents to be bad for the advice to apply.

[/ QUOTE ]

I meant decent in referring to their preflop standards. If 4 good players limp in, AQo doesn't have that much of a preflop equity edge. But if 4 party 2/4 clowns limp in you have a huge edge. I wasn't really thinking about forcing them to make postflop mistakes. At 2/4 a hand like KTo is where this stuff applies IMO.

-SmileyEH

[Moozh]

This is a question I have struggled with from time to time. Since the Fudamental Theory says you want your opponents to make mistakes, you'd think you'd want to keep the pot small against calling stations. This would lead to the argument that you shouldn't be raising AQo here.

But, after giving it some thought, I strongly disagree with this. While trying so hard to get your opponents to make mistakes, we've lost sight of the true goal of why we play poker: to make money.

As stated above, most low limit donks don't adjust their play based on the size of the pot. So, consider two examples where the same hand is played exactly the same except for the decision to raise or not raise AQo preflop after many limpers.

In both cases, you will win exactly the same percentage of the time. Since the bets that go in postflop are exactly the same, the only difference in the outcome will be the bets that go in preflop. It should be easy to see that you will be winning more money in the case where you raised preflop assuming you had an equity edge preflop.

Now, in the real world, even bad players do make adjustments to larger pots. But, overall those adjustments are way too small to make up for the overwhelming edge you gain by raising for value early on.

[cassady]

You know, when people said "these forums aren't what they used to be" I always thought it was false nostalgia. I guess I was wrong. Great link.