Q2s in the SB

[JTG51]

This is from a really good 5/10 game. Really good. A bunch of calling stations, and a post flop maniac or two. The typical flop has been seen 5 or 6 handed for 1 bet each, unless I raised. Then it's 5 or 6 handed for 2 bets each.

Anyway, I'm in the SB with Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif . There's an EP limper, a MP limper, the CO, and the Button. I complete and the BB checks.

6 of us see the flop for 1 bet each.

Flop: Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I check and it's checked around to the Button. He bets. This player certainly doesn't have to have a Q here. He would bet a T, a 5, or almost any kind of draw also. I checkraise, BB folds, EP, MP and CO cold call. Button 3 bets. I call and everyone calls.

5 of us go to the turn with 10.5 BBs in the pot.

Turn: [Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ] 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

I check, everyone checks to the button who bets. I call, everyone else calls. I was very angry with my decison here. I think betting was probably the best play.

5 of us see the river with 15.5 BBs in the pot.

River: [Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif ] 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif

I check, everyone checks to the button who bets.

What's my best play here? Also, feel free to chastise me for my turn play, or tell me why you think it was OK.

[Zag]

I like the check-raise on the flop, but then fold to the re-raise. At this point, you are looking for a 2, and maybe you need two of them if he has QT or runner-runner flush.

The turn play I don't see anything wrong, because I think your only chance is the flush and you have odds to draw at it (assuming you are pretty sure you won't see a check-raise behind you).

On the river, lay it down. Your Queen, no kicker is dead meat.

[Robk]

JTG, your turn play was the right one IMO. I would check fold without the hearts. On the river, it's a very marginal call. I would fold (probably).

P.S. I would fold before the flop even though the game is good. Feel free to change my weaktight mind.

[Homer]

Do you think raising is better than calling? I think the only chance he has to win the hand is to raise the button's bet on the river, knocking out stronger Q's behind him. This is not to say that raising is better than folding, but I do think it is better than calling.

Anyone else care to comment?

-- Homer

[Dr.Kimble]

I find thats not a good Spot to check raise from the small Blind with your Hand,
2cards in the playingzone+ FlushDraw /forums/images/icons/blush.gif

[JTG51]

Preflop: This is a clear-cut call.

Agreed.

Flop: Close call between check-raising and check-folding.

I know I called my opponents calling stations, but I think most of them would have bet the flop with a Q. Given the opponents, I think it's just as likely that I'll get a cold caller with a T as with a Q. I think that makes a check raise a much better option than a check fold.

Turn: I would check-call.

I think a turn bet does two things for me. First, if I get raised again I can make a very easy river fold without improvement. Also, I'm likely to get 4-1 on however many bets go in on the turn. That should make it a neutral EV play at worst. Then again, everyone else thinks a check is the right play.

River: I would fold. I think the next best play is to raise and the worst is to call.

I disagree. I think a call is better than a fold. I really don't think any of these opponents would fold top pair or better on the river for one bet or two.

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I like the check-raise on the flop, but then fold to the re-raise. At this point, you are looking for a 2, and maybe you need two of them if he has QT or runner-runner flush

[/ QUOTE ]

I like the check-raise on the flop too.

There are 17 sb in the pot when he has to call the 3-bet. Assuming that the other 3 players will call the 3-bet, he's getting 20-1 on his call here. It's a clear call.

On the turn, another check-raise might thin the field, but you'll probably be 3-bet again. I think check-call is the best, (check-fold without the hearts).

On the river, I can't imagine your hand being good, although the button could have had something like A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif or J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

[Jeffage]

You absolutely played this well, and like a thinking player. The flop play well was thought out, but when all those people coldcalled, u got the info you need to play well on the expensive streets. On the turn, your play is check fold unless u pick up the heart draw, two pair, or trips. You need to hit to win...you are likely badly beat in at least one spot and prob more than one. Check-calling may "feel" weak, but it's right. Your draw will be awfully expensive if it is raised and reraised. I think you can fold the end...there will be at least one overcaller and a better queen will get shown (or better than that)...not everyone is likely drawing.

Jeff

[mobes]

I like the turn. The only weak play was calling the reraise on the flop which allowed you to pick up the flush draw which cost you another bet. Although at the table I probably would have done the same thing. Easy fold on the river.

[Ed S.]

Personally I would of come out betting on the flop. Yeah I Know if anyone has better kicker you are going to pay them off. But you should know that by the turn with a re raise. If no re-raise, your top pair just might be good. I think the check raise wasn't fooling anyone. I woulda put you on the draw and trying to minimized the field.

Anyways I like to come out betting because alot of times you take down the pot and by check-raising here you build a pot that you may force other bad players to see with bottom pair.

On the River you have a slim chance that you are still ahead, but sine you'd played it this way I think you have to call and make him show you a better Kicker. If not your queen will beat his 2nd or 3rd pair. But if your fairly confident in your read on the player that was last to act. Then I would definitely call here because of his likelyhood of having the 10 or 5 like you said.


Check raising isn't a bad idea don't get me wrong but be weary of what you build. It might bite you in the butt. If you could take down the field and get it heads up then by all means do so, if you fairly confident check raising would do that.

Ed S.

[Georgia Peach]

I agree that a pre-flop fold is called for; Q2s is just not playable from the SB with so many people in the mix as described. You're vulnerable and possibly up against another Q with better kickers or a straight draw (KJ).

Unless you're going to bluff your way through and be aggressive, I don't think a pair of Qs with a 2 kicker is good enough to proceed after the flop given the strength showed by the button.

The CR on the flop is a good move because it should cause consternation, but instead the button 3-bet. I think a fold here, unless he has a history of bluffing, is warranted.

Your check and call on the turn just doesn't work given the cards you hold and the power exhibited by the button. I think either you check-fold or you have to bet on the turn and if he raises you, fold. If he calls, you then bet the river and fold if he raises.

[JTG51]

I agree that a pre-flop fold is called for; Q2s is just not playable from the SB with so many people in the mix as described.

Are you saying Q2s would be playable with less players in the mix? I think it's playable because there are so many players in.

The CR on the flop is a good move because it should cause consternation, but instead the button 3-bet. I think a fold here, unless he has a history of bluffing, is warranted.

You'd fold on the flop with what is likely going to be 20-1 odds after the players that already called 2 cold call the 3rd bet? I'm almost getting enough to draw to my runner runner flush, nevermind the fact that I may be ahead and if I'm not a Q or a 2 could be an out. I agree that it's not the best spot to be in, but I think it's a pretty easy call once the button 3 bets.

Your check and call on the turn just doesn't work given the cards you hold and the power exhibited by the button. I think either you check-fold or you have to bet on the turn and if he raises you, fold.

Did you notice that I turned a flush draw? I'm guessing not, I doubt you'd check fold a Q high flush draw with top pair getting better than 10-1 odds.

[morgan]

Pre-flop: call

Flop: I think the check-raise is fine in a game where it could get you heads-up with the bettor. But even then I'm hesitant. After the 3-bet you have to fold. You've said you can't because you're likely getting 20-1 odds, which is almost enough to cover your runner-runner flush. That isn't right. If you plan to see the river, then you are getting, at best, 28-3. It's about 24-1 to hit your runner-runner flush. And I don't even think you're odds are this good. A 10h may fill someone up, and finally someone could have a larger flush draw than yours.

Turn: check call. You aren't getting even EV because your flush could still lose. Also I don't believe betting out can win you the pot.

River: You'll get about 17-1 or so to call. I'd fold as I don't think your odds are that good, but I wouldn't argue with a crying call.

Morgan

[Homer]

Preflop: This is a clear-cut call. I know you think so too, JTG. I am only mentioning this because others seem to think a fold is in order.

Flop: Close call between check-raising and check-folding. If you think a check-raise will clear the field, getting you heads-up with the button, then it is the right play. However, if you anticipate multiple cold-callers, then you should fold. Once there are three cold-callers and the button three-bets, I think you have a call.

Turn: I would check-call. I'm almost certain that you are behind to someone (probably one of the coldcallers afraid to bet with Qx but happy to coldcall with it). If you bet, you may get raised and have to pay multiple bets to see the river with a hand with which you would rather see the river for a single bet.

River: I would fold. I think the next best play is to raise and the worst is to call.

-- Homer

[JTG51]

I would fold before the flop even though the game is good. Feel free to change my weaktight mind.

I fold a lot of hands in the SB that most people don't, but Clarkmeister and others have convinced me recently that this is a pretty easy call. I'm getting 11-1 with almost no chance of a raise from the BB. Sure, it's possible I could get in trouble if a Q flops with my kicker, but top pair no kicker will still win a lot of pots.

I would check fold without the hearts.

That was my plan.

[JTG51]

If you plan to see the river, then you are getting, at best, 28-3. It's about 24-1 to hit your runner-runner flush.

That's a good point, thanks for the correction Morgan. That said, I'm still think it's a call on the flop. I can't be worried about someone having a bigger flush draw than me.

You are all starting to convince me that the turn check call is the right play.

[davidross]

In the online 2/4 games I play Q2s is an easy call from the SB. I think it was Dynasty who once posted that you will flop a flush draw or 2 pair or better once in 7.5 times. You were getting 11 to 1 pre-flop so I like the play.

Post flop I prefer to play it exactly as you did. I don't want many people drawing to their overcards here. If it comes back to me raised, I fold. With the bet coming from the button It's a no-brainer. I raise this every time. I'm not happy that everyone calls though, and when the button 3-bets I'm going to just call as you did.

With the flush draw now I check too. Check with outs, bet with no outs is the credo I believe.

River I would call. THe pot is too big and it wouldn't surprise me to see the button on a spade draw. You only have to win one out of 16 to make it worth while.

[Ed Miller]

I agree that a pre-flop fold is called for; Q2s is just not playable from the SB with so many people in the mix as described.

I couldn't disagree more. I think playing Q2s here is clearly +EV. You have odds just to hit a flush draw, two pair, or trips.

I don't think a pair of Qs with a 2 kicker is good enough to proceed after the flop given the strength showed by the button.

I agree that I don't like the hand much after three cold-callers and a 3-bet. Though at this point, you have to call and take one off unless you strongly suspect a cap behind you.

think either you check-fold or you have to bet on the turn and if he raises you, fold.

Ummm.. he's got a flush draw and a pair in a big pot. He's not folding.

[JTG51]

I think the check raise wasn't fooling anyone. I woulda put you on the draw and trying to minimized the field.

Why would I want to limit the field with a draw? I'd be a lot more likely to bet the flop if I had a draw so that I didn't limit the field. I think my check raise screamed that I had a pair, not a draw. I wasn't really interested in fooling anyone. Trying to 'trick' loose passive players is rarely the right thing to do.

[davidross]

You are probably right, I'm just not sure I'd be prepared to throw another bet away on this hand. I guess if I had a strong feeling that the better Q was out there and the button was running a bluff it would make a lot of sense.

[rigoletto]

If you plan to see the river, then you are getting, at best, 28-3. It's about 24-1 to hit your runner-runner flush. And I don't even think you're odds are this good. A 10h may fill someone up, and finally someone could have a larger flush draw than yours.

Yes, but the Q might fill up as well, or a 2 might come along and why is everybody allways so worried about another flush when they don't hold the ace, in the unlikely event that another heart flush draw out there it could also be smaller than yours!!!! You say it's a preflop call with a hand who's main potential is a flush and then you don't give the flush draw any credit? You are painting a worst case scenario here - you have top pair with a backdoor flush draw and 20:1 odds against callingstations and maniacs - it's a clear call!

[Zag]

[quote=pudley4]There are 17 sb in the pot when he has to call the 3-bet. Assuming that the other 3 players will call the 3-bet, he's getting 20-1 on his call here. It's a clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your 17-1, but I still don't think it is so clear. There might be an idiot behind him who just loves to say "Cap it!" so it might cost him another bet before he's done. But let's just assume that the 20-1 is correct. Let's also assume that he needs the runner-runner flush to win, and that it will always win if he gets it. (Neither of these assumptions is quite correct, but I think that their incorrectness approximately cancel each other.)

Pardon my back-assward way of evaluating these, but I find this approach more accurate and clearer, to me at least.

Assume for a second that he gets a heart on the turn, what EV will that represent for him? He'll be looking at 9/46 chance of finishing the flush, to win 14 big bets, or an EV of 2.74 big bets. So clearly, if he reaches the turn, then calling one bet to see the river is a good call.

However, since he will have to pay one big bet on the turn, then his EV of seeing a heart arrive on the turn is only 1.74 big bets, or about 3.5 small bets. Since the chance of seeing a heart on the turn is 10/47 -- OK, I guess I concede that a call is still correct, but it isn't clear.

[JTG51]

The final board is Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 9 /forums/images/icons/club.gif . I've got Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif .

The responses are pretty clear, almost everyone thinks a river fold is in order. I'm glad to hear that. The button bet the river, I folded, MP called. Button said, "I've got nothing". MP turned over J9o for a pair of 9's to drag the pot. I took a long walk after this one.

Maybe I'm being results oriented when I say I should have bet the turn, since I think I would have won he hand if I did.

Thanks for all the great replies.

[Zag]

Wow. That really hurts. Since I was among those who said to dump it, I feel a little of your reflected pain.

On the other hand, if you never, ever make a bad fold, you aren't folding enough.

[JTG51]

On the other hand, if you never, ever make a bad fold, you aren't folding enough.

True, I'm not convinced it was a bad fold though. At first I thought it was. After thinking about it, and trying to get away from results orientedness, I think the fold was OK. That's reinforced by the fact that almost all the replies said fold.

[bad beetz]

you can't fold Q2s for a sure 11:1, even in the worst position

[bad beetz]

I honestly think you're ahead enough here on the river for calling to be profitable.

you're getting ~17:1 on your call, I think you're ahead here 6% of the time for sure.

I was surprised at how many people said to fold on the river.

[morgan]

"you have top pair with a backdoor flush draw and 20:1 odds against callingstations and maniacs - it's a clear call! "

Again, it is not 20:1, but more like 9.3:1 (at best). I'll change my answer of folding to the 3-bet to a call, but only if I'm convinced Queens and Twos have a good chance of winning.

Morgan

[bernie]

id have played it basically the same way...

preflop....good call...

flop.....great c/r.....works better on a rainbow board. you couldve just called this....

turn....id have check called....the bettor may be on a nut flush draw, and pumping it, but most will take the free card here. the fact he bet into you again makes a good case for folding on the river should you miss...

IF the player had only called your flop raise, id have bet out on the turn.

river....if the player has a tendency to play a draw this way, again, maybe a nut draw, i may call here...that is, if this was one of the post flop maniacs you described...otherwise, id fold this if it was a calling station getting this active in the pot...

no way im folding this preflop in this spot
again, flop play was optional...you could just call it, but id be likely to raise it also...

overall, i think you played it fine...

b

[bernie]

if this was one of the passive players on the table, he isnt going to be ahead here the percentage of the time. the guy didnt slow down at any time....he didnt say if this was one of the post flop aggressors or not. which is a big factor in this river play.

player knowledge helps a little here....

b

[Net Warrior]

I thought that the standard play was chech-call all the way with top pair weak kicker. Sometimes getting fancy hurts your play. Just my two cents...

[Jeffage]

JTG has to checkraise the flop here to protect his hand in a multiway pot...if he calls, he lets everyone in for one bet with no clue where he is at. Checkraising eliminates people and it also gave him info...when that many people coldcall it usually means someone has a big queen minimum and he can play accordingly. Check-calling the flop here when the bet comes from LP is weak poker.

Jeff

[Net Warrior]

On second thought, I agree, a chech-raise here is correct. I checked my reference and found "top pair, not A or K, multiway, check-fold vs. EP bet and check-raise vs. LP bet". Thanks for the heads up.

[Net Warrior]

To elaborate, there are several reasons to check-raise. First, the button is likely betting based on position with a semi-bluff and if he’s got a better Q, so be it. Second, EP and MP players would bet the flop with Q good kicker so likely your Q is good and you have to C/R to get overcards to fold. Now, when the button 3 bets with all those callers, you can put him on a big flush draw which rules out his having a Q. The only question is that he may 3 bet a set so I’d just check-call the rest of the way unless a flush card hits.

[rigoletto]

What are you talking about /forums/images/icons/confused.gif He's putting 1 sb into a pot with 17 sb's and can expect 3 other to call behind him, that is 20:1 in my book!

I don't think queens and twos have a good chance of winning, but they have a fair chance compared to the pot, especially considering who's in the hand!

[bernie]

[bernie]

if an EP bets, im not folding for jsut one bet with this hand....

chances are, my call will close the action and if i hit my kicker it will be good. that and the possible gain of a flush draw make this a call for 1 bet here...

if a guy reraises, it doesnt always mean he has a flush draw....many players will play QJ and stronger this way on the flop....sometimes even Q mid kick....he may also have 2 pair....i wouldnt rule out top pair decent kicker though....

generally youre not going to be thinking set here until around the 3 bet on the turn. depending on what the turn brings....

there are many hands a 3 bettor can have in this spot....

b

[Robk]

This guy bluffed the river in a huge pot into 4 players. 4 players?! If I knew that the game was
this crazy, I would like to reconsider my "marginal call" statement. This is a marginal call against
normal players. Against guys who bluff into 4 people on the river, well...

[JTG51]

This guy bluffed the river in a huge pot into 4 players. 4 players?!

Yeah, unfortunately I hadn't played with this guy much before this. I knew he'd bet a lot of hands on the flop from that position, I didn't know he'd push a draw so hard though.

[morgan]

But he doesn't need to just call one sb to win this hand. A turn bet is very likely, in which case he will have to put in an additional 2 sb, while at most 4 opponents call, so his odds to see the river are (20+8):(1+2), or 28:3, or about 9.3:1.

I now agree that queens and twos have enough chance to win that calling is correct.

Morgan

[758219]

Fold, you have mostly a 10% chance of winning, and the pot is offering you only 1/16.5.