Very Passive w/ KK (Party 30)

[ike]

Button is a little on the laggy side (25/16/1.7) plays decent postflop and can read hands pretty well.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (6.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

What do you think?

[mc1023]

um.. bet?

[bicyclekick]

Fine until the river...bet the river.

If he had bet the turn and bet the river and diamonds hadn't have came I wouldn't have called the river bet. You're ahead of next to 0 capping hands he's betting. I don't think enough players get frisky enough with 99/AQs or less to warrent a calldown.

/edit [censored] I thought he bet the flop and checked the turn...ahh i suck at reading hand posts.

[mc1023]

I think bet turn, bet river regardless of diamond as long as board doesn't get ugly.

I can't see how TT, JJ, QQ would check that flop there, even AK would bet. On top of that this person is a LAG, he would've bet AQ on the flop.

No way I'm checking the Turn, there's not many hands I can be behind too. Even if I am, I have huge numbers of outs.

AQ and if he was LAG would call turn and river with AQ I think.

Let's not forget this is PP 30-60.

[PairTheBoard]

[ QUOTE ]
I think bet turn, bet river regardless of diamond as long as board doesn't get ugly.

I can't see how TT, JJ, QQ would check that flop there, even AK would bet. On top of that this person is a LAG, he would've bet AQ on the flop.

No way I'm checking the Turn, there's not many hands I can be behind too. Even if I am, I have huge numbers of outs.

AQ and if he was LAG would call turn and river with AQ I think.

Let's not forget this is PP 30-60.

[/ QUOTE ]

The LAG did bet the flop.

PairTheBoard

[mc1023]

my mistake, bet river though /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[PairTheBoard]

You put him on something like 99's or maybe a smaller pocket pair? What's his Turn check mean? Maybe he figures he's beat bad and hopes for a cheap showdown? Maybe he's got a small diamond and hopes to get bailed out if you are diamondless? If he's got the small diamond is he more likely to call your bet than bet your nut hand for you? Yes but maybe not by much. If he doesn't have the small diamond he's certainly more likely to bluff without it than call your bet.

I'm guessing that without the small diamond he will often not bluff because he will hope a cheap showdown shows you to have a smaller pocket pair. And he will almost always call with a small diamond but will also bet it for you fairly often but not call a raise. So my answer is, I don't know. Too close to call.

When in doubt holding the nuts, bet it. I'd probably bet it.

PairTheBoard

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i think you really gotta bet the river. i dont' see him betting very much of anything on this river but may call a bet.

[beerbandit]

i think it was played fine --


being a lag player he would bet with a lot more hands on the river then he would call with -


cheers

[surfdoc]

Hi Ike. I think you are real good but I can't see any reason to check the river here. I am waiting for your thoughts because this one seems easy. You have the nuts. It is the last street. What am I missing?

[ggbman]

Bet the river.

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the idea here relates to clarkmeister's: if he bets this river, any non-diamond hand his opponent will fold, but he might take a stab at the pot if he checks here.

I think (time lag takes a stab at the pot) &gt; (time lag calls a bet with trash) in general.

Plus, if the LAG takes a stab at the pot with a low diamond (7 or 8 or 9) and Hero raises him, he will call for an extra bet.

[ike]

Ok, everyone says bet the river, but what actual hands do you guys think he checks behind that would call a bet? What hands do you think bet and call a c/r? What hands bet and fold? Say this guy's capping range is something like AKo, AKS, AA-88.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
what actual hands do you guys think he checks behind that would call a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty much everything.

[gm4351]

Bet the river. Definitely. This guy is definitely calling you down. What else is he three betting the flop with? He probably hit a set and will pay you off.

No one suggested betting the turn - great opportunity for a semi bluff. If you get raised, you are still even money to hit by the river.

[Guruman]

check/calling this flop seems really passive to me. Someone please explain to me why c/r or leading is wrong here.

Thx! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
i think it was played fine --


being a lag player he would bet with a lot more hands on the river then he would call with -


cheers

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it. Villain capped PF so he has a hand with value. He would only bet this river as a bluff, but he will not have a hand he wants to bluff with. He wants to see the showdown cheaply with anything from two pair to a lower flush. It is possible he would bet a diamond, but I don't think he'd call a c/r with a diamond. Therefore it's better to bet, to extract value from a diamond or a worse holding.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
check/calling this flop seems really passive to me. Someone please explain to me why c/r or leading is wrong here.

[/ QUOTE ]
What hands are you beating on this flop? You really think the opponent made a goofy cap with 99 or AQ signficiantly more often than he caps with AA, AK, QQ, TT and JJ?

[SoSo]

Please explain why a semi-bluff flop raise is a bad thing?

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what actual hands do you guys think he checks behind that would call a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty much everything.

[/ QUOTE ]i completely disagree. sometimes it sucks to checkcheckcheck the nuts, but in this hand i dont thing a single decision was poor. well played, IMO.

[elindauer]

Why didn't you bet the river? All the diamonds are dead. It's way too risky to check here, especially since, given your description, you can't be confident that he will pay off if you do get to check-raise. Bet the river.

Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what actual hands do you guys think he checks behind that would call a bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Pretty much everything.

[/ QUOTE ]i completely disagree. sometimes it sucks to checkcheckcheck the nuts, but in this hand i dont thing a single decision was poor. well played, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]


You didn't actually say anything of value, unless you consider "I like it" to be valuable. Why do you like it? Considering that the button did in fact check behind, it would seem that the burden of proof is on you, no?


Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
Please explain why a semi-bluff flop raise is a bad thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

It might be reasonable, if the hero held a hand to which the term "semi-bluff" might apply. I hope you don't think that you're going to get a better hand than KK to fold.

Since button capped, and the flop hit most of the pairs under us, it's hard to imagine how we can be ahead. The only hand we beat is AK, and we can't make that fold. Out of position, a check-raise doesn't get us any information, and gets money in with the worst of it.

Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
I think bet turn, bet river regardless of diamond as long as board doesn't get ugly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wha?! You are facing a cap from a reasonable opponent and the board is QJT. Isn't the board scary enough already?!

Good luck.
Eric

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the idea here relates to clarkmeister's: if he bets this river, any non-diamond hand his opponent will fold...

[/ QUOTE ]


lol. Have you ever played poker before? I don't see how anyone that has played a significant number of hands at partypoker can say with a straight face that only a diamond will call this river.

-Eric