Set no good, hero sorta knows that, but what line on river?

[Big Limpin']

i obviouly beat any non-flush, but should i make an attempt to make villain muck a low flush?, or just cut my losses and check/fold?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)
converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t975)
UTG (t820)
UTG+1 (t740)
MP1 (t770)
MP2 (t710)
MP3 (t775)
CO (t1425)
Button (t1000)
Hero (t785)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3
folds</font>, CO calls t15, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>,
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t50</font>, <font color="#666666">1
fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t35, CO calls t35.

Flop: (t162.50) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3
players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t150</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls t150.

Turn: (t462.50) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t175</font>, CO calls t175.

River: (t812.50) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets t815</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1627.50

[treeofwisdom7]

Push turn /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Freudian]

I would check/fold also, mostly to avoid the donk feeling when he calls and turns over 8/images/graemlins/club.gif.

Sneaky preflop bet "Hero raises to t47.5, 1"

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
"Hero raises to t47.5, 1"

[/ QUOTE ]Yeah fack dude, i dunno, bisonx2 fuct up, i edited to read hero bets t50

[treeofwisdom7]

im still not sure how hero should have played this hand if not push turn?

anyone?

[hyde]

what level is this game?

what hand are you putting him on?
his betting pattern is more like a set than a flush draw.
though if I were him, I would have reraised your flop bet if I were holding a set.
also would have reraised with an over pair. maybe.

his bet is screaming K /images/graemlins/club.gif, but I don't know what he is holding it with......
curious.

[hyde]

no, not K /images/graemlins/club.gif, that would have tried to extract $300 or so from you.

curiousier and curiousier

[brimstone1]

very insightful.

I think this might very well be a 77 turned into a flush on the river.

If you could take into consideration only the betting/calling pattern (one street at a time), and ignore the cards, it looks like: set, set, [low] flush.

Then again, he might be trying to scare a possible low flush, playing it like a K/images/graemlins/club.gif, in this scenario, villain (again) holds 77, but 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, no flush.

[kyro]

He called down this far. He's not mucking a low flush.

[freemoney]

lol your an idiot, im sorry i cant be nice these posts are so painful to read, either check the turn or push.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
either check the turn or push.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP so you don't sound like a complete [censored].

Dude, it's not that hard at all.

[cha59]

I can't stop myself from pushing the turn when that happens.

Make the draw pay or pay off the made flush.

[freemoney]

this was not directed to OP at all although i dont really like how he played hand, its in reference to 77 guy, if you really think villian has 77 here then wowwwwwwwwww.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Once you bet 50 preflop, it's pretty clear that you aren't interested in going broke here. With that as your plan, your line accomplished just that, so I don't think its that bad.

Personally, I'd push the turn, but I also would've bet more than 50 preflop which guarentees the rest of my stack would be going in here.

I believe curtains and others like to make small preflop raises in level 1, but that's in a 1000 chip game where you can get away from AA more easily, and possibly to disguise your hand from other regulars in the 215s.

In 800 chips games, it's tough to get away from AA, so I raise big preflop and don't look to get away.

[brimstone1]

[ QUOTE ]
this was not directed to OP at all although i dont really like how he played hand, its in reference to 77 guy, if you really think villian has 77 here then wowwwwwwwwww.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks buddy
gg

[treeofwisdom7]

thankx for the replay PVS. i see that a bigger preflop bet would have been a good idea considering im almost 100% sure that villian would call it anyway. this would lead to a turn push which cant be that far off from correct.

i think what OP was trying to figure out what the Perfect play in this hand would be. i have a feeling OP made the perfect move but a push on turn cant be far from correct.

thankx, i wonder what curtains might say.

[lastchance]

When you're at a $33 or lower, I don't think it's profitable trying to get away from AA postflop.

[Big Limpin']

TY to all who gave input here. ill give my responses here as best i can. the reason for this hesitation is that i must confess this was not a hand i played, but it was that of a friend...as i was only an observer i cannot say exactly what his thoughts were on all streets, although i have a good idea. I have much respect for the hero, and can assure you that he is not a donk. Also, i think i would have played the hand in a similar fashion (up to the turn anyway). THus, i learn something from the responses too.

Also, this hand was from a $22 last night, when &gt;70k players online.

OK, first things first, i gotta say the question being posed here was if you find yourself in this situation on 5th street , then what is your line there? That is, i am asking given the leadup to the river, we can be pretty sure that we will lose if it goes to showdown (villian must have some sort of flush). So, on the river, if we have the option of firing about t400 at it...what flush would he fold? Any? perhaps not, but worth asking. Because of p/f raise (minimal, but still of some significance), its kinda tough not to give him credit for some broadway cards, i think. K/images/graemlins/club.gif calls (duh). Q/images/graemlins/club.gif calls. But what of J/images/graemlins/club.gif or T/images/graemlins/club.gif? Hero is left with t400 after this hand if he check/folds, but could come out with t1200 if he can steal it. We can be sucessuful less than half the time and still be making the right move.

Anyways, im convinced that check/folding was the right line, but just wanted to throw that out there to clarify what i was asking in the OP, and if anyone wants to comment further on that, i'd like to hear it.


Now, since most of you want to talk about the p/f, flop, and turn lines....lets talk about that. And let me clarify again that this wasnt my hand, so i can only specualate on the hero's line of thinking, but i think i would have played similar, so here goes:

P/F: Sure, raise could have been bigger. Especially because you are going to be playing the hand OOP, so in this case i'd be inclined to go up to 3 figures....wouldnt even mind taking limps and blinds uncalled, although getting called is nice. But, as it is, 3.5BB is still a raise of some meaning, and [ QUOTE ]
Once you bet 50 preflop, it's pretty clear that you aren't interested in going broke here.

[/ QUOTE ] is exactly that. Even though we are leading every flop, we will be able to abort after that if the action dictates it.

Flop: I think this is automatic, pot-lead. No further dicussion. CO calls on 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif board...doesnt define his hand too clearly, but its worth noting.

Turn: Yuppers....a 3rd /images/graemlins/club.gif falls...and we lead for a pansy-assed amount. I am not defending the move. I agree that pushing is better, and checking is better. Of those two, well, i bet those who say push are making a fine move, although i think i personally would have checked. Not shutting it down necessarily, although i might fold. It's just sort of a trademark move of mine to do that (when im EP and had the initiative, to pass the action when a scare card comes). The risk is there of giving him a free card, but you make back alot of EV in induced bluffs (i benifit from semi-bluffs, if im willing to call), and if he also has a overpair, he will be quite happy to bet it up thinking he has best hand. And also, following the trend of playing the hand in a manner i can bail out on, check/check is not exactly a bad thing.

That all being said, im not sure if me checking there would be the "correct" play. I havent any stats to work off of. Just a hunch i have that acting scared on a scare card has some merit to it in the right situation. I am willing to be flamed for this, and willing to be convinced that this is bad/leak. Just make sure you back it up with some reasoning. That way i learn.

OK, but i get the feeling that most of you are in agreement that pushing is the standard line here. I certainly agree that it is better then betting t175 into a t460 pot. By doing that, i think you are committed on any rivers that arent 4th/images/graemlins/club.gif

If he has a pat flush on turn, or flopped a set...i think im paying him off. Really, that river was the only way i could get way from this hand ont he river, if i made the t175 bet.

Turn Summary: Posted line bad. Push good. Check maybe good also(?)

Which brings us full-circle back to the river. My question remains..."could push/bluffing the river have any hope of being +EV?, or is check/fold the only line?"

My thoughts on that are that because it was a raised pot, and because its a $22 in primetime, its a longshot to work, but still possible. Whats the highst "club" YOU would fold? I know you guys arent "average donks", so maybe i'll take your standards and knock it down a couple ranks. But there is always the chance that CO had mid-PP, and just saw me as making continuation bets with the AK i airballed on (i.e. i have A/images/graemlins/club.gif, so he mucks his 66, or 88, or whatever, even with a flush that he is convinced is no good.

Discuss.

(Also, i'd like to encourage the original Hero in this hand to get off his lazy ass and stop lurking and register here already /images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

Thanks, BL'

[Big Limpin']

[ QUOTE ]
When you're at a $33 or lower, I don't think it's profitable trying to get away from AA postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

*cringes*

I know what you are saying, and i agree that even if you never got away from it, youd still realize profit from your AA hands, but i am sure that you can win your winners, but *not* lose some of the losers, and realize a greater profit.

[Phil Van Sexton]

Sorry, I didn't address river play since check/fold seemed clearly correct.

The villian has you covered by a mile, so I doubt he's folding anything. If he had 800 like you, pushing has slightly more merit.

[bcscott]

After some prodding from Mr. Limpin, here's my first post. As he mentioned, this was my hand, and I'll attempt to rationalize my play. Thanks everybody for providing the insight so far. I'm more of a limit ring game player than NL SnG, and I think some of that shows up in this hand.

Pre Flop


Maybe an under-raise. However, it's early at the game, no reads available, and I figure I'm a better player than the majority of the table. As such, I'm trying to keep the pot relatively small for now, so I can get away from it if things get hairy. I agree with what somebody else posted here, if I put in a big raise (eg 150t), I'm likely to avoid this situation, as I'm probably pushing the flop. Also, having played some more games at the 20+2 level, I know realize that it's probably a good idea to try to get your whole stack in PF here, the quality of hands that people will push with or call and all in with at this level is pretty ridiculous. Anyways.


Flop

I think this is pretty standard given the PF action, however, I'm a little concerned with the smooth call behind me, to tell you the truth i was really just hoping to pick up the pot right here.

Turn

/images/graemlins/frown.gif Here is my thinking with the underbet. I figure I'm either far ahead here, or really really far behind. I don't think its unreasonable for the villan to have 2 broadway clubs here, or a set on the flop. When I bet out, its with the intention of folding to push re-raise (overly weak tight perhaps?). The smooth call here is really confusing. I can't see the villian not pushing a set here, same thing with overpair with club. Even after looking this hand over again, I really can't see the villian having anything other than a completed flush here, but maybe I'm giving him way to much credit. Prior to the river card, I guess its possible he has a hand like A9o with the ace of clubs...

River

Fold check is clearly the right play in retrospect. It was just a really wierd card to come down. The only other point of interest on this hand was I mulled this over for quite a while (used my time bank), and the villian auto-potted after I checked, so I'm pretty sure he had a good club.

Anyways, in summary, I think the small PF raise leads to the weak bet on the turn. The pot was kept small enough that I could escape with a reasonable amount of chips, and it worked out.
Thanks to everybody who posted so far, I'm looking forward to posting some more hands in the near future.

Gooch