Did I play flush draw too aggressively on the flop?

[avisco01]

MP1 is a tight-aggressive player, very solid from what I've seen:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

[damaniac]

You're about EV neutral if all you have is your flush draw vs. two players here. Sometimes what happened to you will happen (3-bet and other player folds), so you lose a little. However, you also have times where MP1 has say KQ or a pp lower than aces, and in those cases your raise will occassionally get him to fold a better hand, which is big. Your line is fine, calling isn't horrible either, but I'd usually play it the same (I'd think about check-raising the river, but since he's probably not paying off a check-raise, will sometimes check behind, and will usually call a donkbet, I like betting more).

[avisco01]

Yeah, I put MP1 on AQ, AJ, AK when he reraised the flop. I should have seen that coming really, and I don't think I should have check-raised the flop because I don't want to lose a customer with the nut flush draw. It worked out fine obviously, but having the extra player come along would have been better assuming he calls MP1's natural turn bet, giving me better odds to draw. Can't argue with the result, figured I'd get feedback on playing a draw probably too aggressively. Of course, I'm looking for a free card on 4th after check-raising the flop, but after MP1 3-bets the flop, I realized it was a futile attempt. Luckily, I had good enough odds to call the turn bet after the action on the flop.

[Redeye]

This really won't make much of a difference with two players IMO. When acting last against two players it can have a littler better advantage with the possibility of getting a free card. Playing it aggressively will probably not get him off a better hand, even if he wiffed because you're probably never betting the turn in this case, without improving

[avisco01]

Forgot something, I never check-raise heads up on the river. In this case especially, that river card has to scare him and I figure I'm doing him a big favor by allowing him to see my hand for free there. If he does have an ace with a good kicker he's paying off, the pot is too big, and I figure he's definitely checking the river when a scary falls. Just before he called my river bet he typed "enjoy your flush," so I don't think I would have gotten the opportunity to check and raise. However, if I allowed the other player to come along, perhaps he would have made a smaller flush, or backdoored two-pair or something giving me the check-raise possibility.

[damaniac]

Good thoughts, esp about losing the other player hurting you on the turn (although sometimes he'll just fold the turn anyway). I still think raising is fine, but it would behoove all of us to remember why we raise strong draws (value + semi-bluff fold equity in some scenarios), so that we know that there are clearly times where just calling is fine too, and superior to raising, instead of just blindly raising b/c it's a strong draw, and that's what we do with strong draws.

[avisco01]

On a completely unrelated topic, with that last post, I have successfully graduated from "newbie" to "journeyman."

[damaniac]

Shouldn't you be writing a dissertation about how much you've learned in the last...what is it, 25 posts? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Congrats.

[avisco01]

Yeah, you see, as a newbie I never would have considered playing the nut flush draw this way. Obviously, being on the cusp of journeyman-hood, I decided to mix up my play dramatically. I didn't know it then, but looking back in retrospect, this must be the case. Becoming a journeyman has completely opened my eyes to new and better ways of playing such hands. Though the rating system can be manipulated obviously, being that if I make 400 or so posts as meaningless as this one, and the last one, I will become an "addict" without really putting in the time or effort. The rating system is therefore quite flawed.

[Derek132260]

Grunch.

I wouldn't check-raise this flop precisely because I don't really want to go three with a flush draw against only two opponents. However, since you did check-raise the flop, and since your opponent is a solid TAG, and since he has so clearly told you has AK or AQ -- why not go for a c/r on the river...he'd likely bet not fearing the flush that much, and then make a crying call.

[avisco01]

[ QUOTE ]
Grunch.

I wouldn't check-raise this flop precisely because I don't really want to go three with a flush draw against only two opponents. However, since you did check-raise the flop, and since your opponent is a solid TAG, and since he has so clearly told you has AK or AQ -- why not go for a c/r on the river...he'd likely bet not fearing the flush that much, and then make a crying call.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean by "grunch?" In my post at 10:16 I said the follwing:

"Forgot something, I never check-raise heads up on the river. In this case especially, that river card has to scare him and I figure I'm doing him a big favor by allowing him to see my hand for free there. If he does have an ace with a good kicker he's paying off, the pot is too big, and I figure he's definitely checking the river when a scary falls. Just before he called my river bet he typed "enjoy your flush," so I don't think I would have gotten the opportunity to check and raise."

I generally don't like checking and raising to be honest, especially on the river where I can miss out on a BB. I figured this way he definitely calls, given the size of the pot. He was obviously smart enough to pick up on the fact that I was drawing after I didn't bet out on the turn. I truly believe he checks behind on the river. I figured why risk losing out on a definite BB?