100/200 99

[bicyclekick]

5 handed 100/200. I've been runnign good the past bit and overplayed a hand at 300/600 vs the villain (kutakinte) about 15 minutes prior and we tallked a little trash cause i got lucky on the river and he's not happy. He's a thinking donk. Raises too much and puts in too many bets postflop and is the definition of a player that puts you to the test. He can find folds (but doesn't fold much, at least not until the river) and plays position well.

UTG is a 66/16/1 player who is obviously a bad player. Seems pretty straightforword/bad postflop.

UTG raises, donk 3 bets, I 4 bet 99 in the sb, they both call.

Flop T52

I bet, utg calls, donk raises. 3bet to squeeze utg out? and fold the turn if donk 4 bets? if utg folds and donk calls and raises the turn fold? check call the turn if HU so you make sure you see showdown? Am I showdown commited if I 3 bet? Just call the raise and re-evaluate turn?

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
5 handed 100/200. I've been runnign good the past bit and overplayed a hand at 300/600 vs the villain about 15 minutes prior and we tallked a little trash. He's a thinking donk. Raises too much and puts in too many bets postflop and is the definition of a player that puts you to the test. He can find folds (but doesn't fold much, at least not until the river) and plays position well.

UTG is a 66/16/1 player who is obviously a bad player. Seems pretty straightforword/bad postflop.

UTG raises, donk 3 bets, I 4 bet 99 in the sb, they both call.

Flop T52

I bet, utg calls, donk raises. 3bet to squeeze utg out? and fold the turn if donk 4 bets? if utg folds and donk calls and raises the turn fold? check call the turn if HU so you make sure you see showdown? Am I showdown commited if I 3 bet? Just call the raise and re-evaluate turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

My instinct--which seems to be often wrong at the upper levels--is to 3-bet and lead the turn. Fold to the cap. Fold to raise on the turn.

[MrTeddyKGB]

Higher than I play so hope you don't mind me giving it a shot. I think you must reraise the flop as getting UTG to fold overs in this 19 bet pot is huge if you are ahead, If UTG folds and villan 4 bets I think calling down is player dependent. I would bet the turn if he just called and consider folding if raised unless he is very tricky. If he is very tricky then I would check and call turn and river. 61 vip in 100/200 must be nice.

[mike l.]

youre showdown committed unless a K, Q, or A comes and utg starts raising it up. so you should reraise the flop and see if utg folds.

it doesnt really matter what donk does. he could easily cap it there with 88, 77, and other hands so youre not folding. even if he 4 bets the flop you should lead the turn and call him down. im assuming you get it heads up of course. should utg stay in you will have to think a bit more, but should stay aggressive and tenacious.

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
3bet to squeeze utg out?


[/ QUOTE ]
yes

[ QUOTE ]

and fold the turn if donk 4 bets?


[/ QUOTE ]

no. if you see the turn, you shouldn't fold it. if you're going to fold after the donk 4 bets, it should be on the flop. otherwise your just giving away $100 by calling the flop 4 bet. very nice of you.

[ QUOTE ]

if utg folds and donk calls and raises the turn fold?


[/ QUOTE ]
i'm leaning towards a fold in that case.

[ QUOTE ]

check call the turn if HU so you make sure you see showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]
no. you don't want to give a free card.

[ QUOTE ]

Am I showdown commited if I 3 bet?


[/ QUOTE ]
not necessarily. "it depends" (see above)

[ QUOTE ]
Just call the raise and re-evaluate turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd much rather 4 bet to get it heads up.

[mike l.]

"if you're going to fold after the donk 4 bets, it should be on the flop. otherwise your just giving away $100 by calling the flop 4 bet. very nice of you."

no he's getting the right odds at that point to turn a set. a fold there would be horrific it's not close in the slightest.

[phish]

That's about as good a flop as you can reasonably expect for 99 against 2 opponents. When you four-bet pre-flop, what were you really expecting? To flop a set, otherwise fold to aggression when a ten hits? You know the raiser is overly aggressive. To me this is a three-bet hand to drive out the UTG and even if you're four-bet, it's a call down hand.
And I would argue that if you're not prepared to do that with this flop, then you should have mucked the 99 pre-flop, or just called and try to hit a set.

[johnnycakes]

[ QUOTE ]
"if you're going to fold after the donk 4 bets, it should be on the flop. otherwise your just giving away $100 by calling the flop 4 bet. very nice of you."

no he's getting the right odds at that point to turn a set. a fold there would be horrific it's not close in the slightest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are correct. Forgot it was capped PF.

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
That's about as good a flop as you can reasonably expect for 99 against 2 opponents. When you four-bet pre-flop, what were you really expecting? To flop a set, otherwise fold to aggression when a ten hits? You know the raiser is overly aggressive. To me this is a three-bet hand to drive out the UTG and even if you're four-bet, it's a call down hand.
And I would argue that if you're not prepared to do that with this flop, then you should have mucked the 99 pre-flop, or just called and try to hit a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now I suspect that you probably did precisely what is listed above, went to showdown and lost to KK. Regardless, I still think that's the correct way to proceed with this flop if you're going to four-bet pre-flop w/ 99.

[ggbman]

I think the flop is definitly a 3 bet, but if you get 4 bet, i think a turn fold UI is generall in order. Against this opponent, you could hope he's going nuts with 88 or AK, it just doesnt seem likely.

[PokerBob]

I think you have to get rid of UTG with a flop 3-bet, as he is "bad" and if he cathces an over, he's showing down. Charge him. If UTG folds and donk raises your turn lead, I'm not sure you can safely fold as he is a "thinker" and must know his turn raise will scare you. Against a tilter who hates you, I think check/calling down is OK and almost necessary, especially if UTG is gone.

[mc1023]

3bet and get UTG out since you are vulnerable to a lot of cards.

if donk capps, how's this line.. check call turn and bet river.

of course this is assuming turn and river are blanks.

If he still pops the river, I think re-evaluate before calling or folding.

if donk calls the 3bets, I like bet turn and check/call river since there's a good chance that'll he put another bet in on the river with a hand worse than yours. also a slight chance he might have played his T weak although from how your talking about the situation it doesnt seem likely.

again this is assuming turn/river are blanks.

[bicyclekick]

I think the flop 3 bet is a no brainer...but thought it was a pretty good spot to start discussion.

I 3 bet, utg folded (and I told my roomate who was sweating me to learn poker...that I'm never folding), donk called.

Turn was a low blank, I bet, he raised and I folded(well there went the plan...i just decided I was beat almost surely...gah). I really really don't think I'm winning here but maybe I should call and see if he bets the river? He will check behind occaisionally but is pretty relentless on rivers too.

[worm33]

3 bet the flop obviously but i would check call the turn and check call the river.

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
Flop T52........Turn was a low blank, I bet, he raised and I folded

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think one of the marks of a very good/great player is knowing you're beat and finding folds with hands like 99 in nice pots like that.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop T52........Turn was a low blank, I bet, he raised and I folded

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think one of the marks of a very good/great player is knowing you're beat and finding folds with hands like 99 in nice pots like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think almost a better skill is finding the tougher calldowns where a 'good' player would fold.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn was a low blank, I bet,

[/ QUOTE ]

Me no like.

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I showdown commited if I 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not "committed," but it's gotta get hairy to bail.

[Lestat]

I know it doesn't flow and might seem awkward, but there's no law saying you can't 3-bet the flop and check the turn. I actually make this play quite a bit short-handed.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey BK,

FWIW, I check the turn here pretty often after taking your line. Sometimes I'm check-raising; other times, check-calling. Also, you didn't say what the turn card actually was, which means you might not remember. That's not good. On that flop, it matters quite a bit as there are a lot of undercards that aren't blanks.

GoT

[phish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flop T52........Turn was a low blank, I bet, he raised and I folded

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think one of the marks of a very good/great player is knowing you're beat and finding folds with hands like 99 in nice pots like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, and the mark of a better player is knowing who is capable of three-betting the flop and folding the turn, and then occasionally manipulating him out of a pot.

If his opponent is a smart thinking donk, he may well make this play with any hand he's tempted to call down with, including 88, 77, A5, AK... (since w/ some of these hands, calling the turn and river will cost the same)

Sorry, but if I thought if I had the slightest inclination to fold for a raise, I would've gone to check call mode. The risk of giving a free card (or losing an extra river call) is better than the risk of being manipulated out of a 12+ bet pot.

[DcifrThs]

this is a perfect spot to 3 bet the flop here vs. kuta and the 66 nutso loosie.

bet the turn and fold to a raise. if called, check most rivers. kuta will likely bet more hands he'll call with there if you bet and if he does call you're just not happy. maybe since he's pissed at you now he'll call another bet on the river given he called the turn but since you showed a great deal of aggression here a river check would be prudent imo.

-Barron

[SA125]

I respect your opinion phish. A large part of my decision was based on posters position. Does that change things for you? I think it does.

[turnipmonster]

[ QUOTE ]
On that flop, it matters quite a bit as there are a lot of undercards that aren't blanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm lost by this, which undercards aren't blanks given the preflop action? even in a limped pot a 6 is the only undercard that completes a straight draw. which opponent do you put on low cards here?

--turnipmonster

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet the flop obviously but i would check call the turn and check call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think thats by far the best line. Its not the end of the world if the donk takes a free card on the turn, there is no chance of him folding a worse hand that is drawing live. I'm not sure about laying down here, especially given your past history with him. If I bet the turn I'm calling it down.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On that flop, it matters quite a bit as there are a lot of undercards that aren't blanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm lost by this, which undercards aren't blanks given the preflop action? even in a limped pot a 6 is the only undercard that completes a straight draw. which opponent do you put on low cards here?

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

3's and 4's are not blanks. I'm not folding the turn against aggressive non-great-thinking opponents if those dropped. The way BK described this opponent, zero chance I'm folding.

GoT

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On that flop, it matters quite a bit as there are a lot of undercards that aren't blanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm lost by this, which undercards aren't blanks given the preflop action? even in a limped pot a 6 is the only undercard that completes a straight draw. which opponent do you put on low cards here?

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

you are not the only one confused by that.

[turnipmonster]

the idea is that a 3 or 4 gives any ace a gutshot and they'll be getting at least 10:1 on the turn, right?

--turnipmonster

[autobet]

[ QUOTE ]
the idea is that a 3 or 4 gives any ace a gutshot and they'll be getting at least 10:1 on the turn, right?

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]
Now we get it!

[fsuplayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the idea is that a 3 or 4 gives any ace a gutshot and they'll be getting at least 10:1 on the turn, right?

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]
Now we get it!

[/ QUOTE ]

go you turnip!

(thanks) /images/graemlins/wink.gif