10-20 Pot limit hold-em

[D.J.]

This is my 5th session of PLH in the last week and so far I'm 4-0 and up about $4K, so it's been going pretty well until tonight. I sit down and buy in for $1500 and play for about 30 minutes when this hand comes up. I get A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif in mp and make it 60 to go, I'm called by the button and BB. Flop

6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

checked to me and I bet 60 more, button raises 240, BB calls, and I end up pushing all in. Button and BB both call and we're about even stacked for a little over 1K each. We call time look at our hands which are my nut flush draw, Button has Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 10 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif , BB has the nuts w/ 3 /forums/images/icons/club.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/club.gif , and we agree to run the turn and river twice. No spade came in 2 runs and I lose a big one. Comments on the hand and if I made the right move.

-D.J.

[Zeno]

"I get A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 8 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif in mp and make it 60 to go,"

In my opinion, this was not a wise play. May depend somewhat on type of game, players etc. but in general this type of hand is only playable in late position or button for profit.

A bell should have gone off in your head when the button raised $240.

I think you need to tighten up your game and read your opponents better.

-Zeno

[gaylord focker]

I agree with Zeno 100% as far as your preflop raise goes. I know a few players who are constantly making lots of mini raises to build the pot, and take control of thier oppenents. However I think this strategy should only be used by the very best PL and NL players. they do this because they have such good control over the other players, they rarely do not know where they are at in a hand. I think you are in a tough spot once it comes back to you for 180. I think its close between calling raising and folding. Since you brought it in for 40, it would be pretty hard for me to out someone on a straight, I would be much more afraid of a little set. I also think since the button made a subtancial raise, and the BB called a substancial raise, it is likey at least one of them is going to call your all in bet, and when the do, you would have to excpect to be behind. Also, the buttons play here makes me want to throw up.

[D.J.]

I really don't think the button had any idea what was going on, we had decided to run the turn and river twice b/c we were all all-in. His Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 10 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning yet he's sitting over there calling out for a Q or 10 to fall. I guess he didn't realize that he might as well throw his hand away before seeing any cards b/c the bb already had the straight. I was talking to one of the guys at the table, I think his name is Bobby Huff and I know he's solid but I was told he's one of the best PL and NL players in the country, and he told me that I made the right decision w/ my hand seeing how I was getting 2-1 on my money. I also agree w/ you guys that my preflop raise was shaky, but I also didn't expect to get a call from 3-4. This hand just makes me wonder, I really don't know how I played it but wanted to hear from you guys.

-D.J.

[gaylord focker]

Well he is right, once you get the two callers, your getting more than proper odds. the problem is that when you went all in you couldnt count on both other players to call. I still think smooth calling is the best option, but I think you can make a strong case for raising all in as well.

[Mikey]

"His Q 10 didn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning yet he's sitting over there calling out for a Q or 10 to fall."

-that's one of the funnies things I think I've ever read on this site.

LOL LOL LOL LOL

[Guy McSucker]

Not that I know how to play this game, but...

I don't like the raise all-in. It looks like you'll get called in at least one spot, and if so you probably need the flush to win.

If both players call, sure you're getting better than 2-1, which gives you positive pot odds for the hand they held (without calculating), but you would be 3-1 against if one of them had a set, which seems likely. I'm guessing that with two callers, one holding a set, the all-in raise has a small negative expectation.

If you only get one caller and he has a set, you've made a significantly losing play. I think that situation comes up often enough to put me off the all-in raise.

I don't know what I would do. Calling the flop and folding to a bet on fourth street is clearly wrong. Calling the flop and calling all-in on fourth street is clearly wrong. I've argued that raising is marginal or wrong.

Hmmm. Maybe fold?

Guy.

[D.J.]

Guy,
Do you still dislike my play if I'm getting 4 cards to make my nut flush? I was pretty sure once they saw my hand that we would run it twice, and I figured hell out of 4 cards 1 spade has to show up, guess not that on that day.

-D.J.

[Phat Mack]

I was talking to one of the guys at the table, I think his name is Bobby Huff and I know he's solid but I was told he's one of the best PL and NL players in the country,

Bobby Hoff. He's one of the best. Glad to hear he's still kickin'.

and he told me that I made the right decision w/ my hand seeing how I was getting 2-1 on my money.

He's trying to encourage you to keep playing the same way. Don't. Your hand was weak before the flop. Your were on a draw against someone who was playing back at you. What you really wanted was to be in there with the nuts, not a draw.

[Matt Flynn]

D.J.,

Good for you getting to play PLHE at the Commerce this month. You may never see better games.

The preflop raise with A8s bit you. A8s' main value is in getting it all in against a weaker flush. When you raise preflop you drive out the very hands you want in. Here QTs called you, but for all you know 97s may have called a limp and pushed in when the flush hit.

Many excellent players will push all-in with the nut flush draw and two overcards. They do it because they must occasionally play hard on the flop with an unmade hand; otherwise all the good players will just fold.

In your game, there aren't enough good players to make it worthwhile to go all-in with your hand, especially if the better players aren't in the hand. Best to just wait for the big hand and let QTs push all his chips in. If you limp preflop and don't overbet the flop the pot remains small and you don't lose much by folding on the turn if you miss but can still likely get a lot of money out of a weaker player with QTs if the flush hits and may take it down if you hit a pair and it gets checked through.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

It is irrelevant whether or not you run it twice.

Once all the money goes in, and there are card(s) yet to come, whether you run it once, twice, or 50 times, your long-term expectation is the same. Exactly the same.

The advantage of running it twice is that it reduces your fluctuations, and keeps people in action when they might have gone bust. It does not change their expectation.

So, my opinion of your play is the same whether you run it twice or not. Not that I have any strong opinion.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[gaylord focker]

What about smooth calling instead of folding? He cant be reraised because he is last to act in the hand, and there is still small chance can get to the river without putting more money in if a blank hits on the turn. Obviously it wouldnt have happened here, since the BB did hold the nuts, but its still possible.

[Matt Flynn]

Once you've gotten to the flop and face that $240 raise, the issue is will you get paid off? You're 4:1 to hit the turn, less if there's another flush draw out. It's $240 to win $600-1800, and you may face a redraw against a set if you get the money in on the turn. If they're playing that wild you may be getting the odds, but I'd fold because I'd have a hard time believing I'd get paid off.