$11's Bubble Leak? (6 hands) [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Dr_Jeckyl_00

07-01-2005, 01:36 PM

I think I have a leak in my bubble play... I keep losing... but seriously, I seem to always be pushing in the wrong spots (including over the top of opponents that have bet at pot.) Sometimes I win a hand when pushing over the top, but I think I finish OOTM more often as a result of this. This is probably -EV, what do you think (here are a few hands from my other 5 OOTM loses last night... only posted 6 hands)

I would appreciate your feedback.

Game 1

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1275)
UTG (t3260)
MP (t1190)
Button (t875)
SB (t1400)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG raises to t300, 3 folds, Hero raises to t1275 (All-In), UTG calls t975.

Flop: (t2625) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2625) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2625) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2625
-------------------------------------------------------
Game 2 - I had not pushed much...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1090)
SB (t2791)
BB (t1307)
UTG (t1337)
MP (t1475)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t1090 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls t990.

Flop: (t2230) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2230) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2230) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2230
--------------------------------------------------------
Game 3

Hand 1 - villain had done this twice when I had a strong hand

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1320)
Hero (t700)
UTG (t890)
UTG+1 (t1135)
MP1 (t2285)
MP2 (t855)
CO (t385)
Button (t430)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t150, 5 folds, Hero raises to t700 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t550.

Flop: (t1425) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1425) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1425) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1425
*************** **************** *******************
Hand 2 - I pushed about 2-3 hands prior from button w/ A9o, but otherwise had not pushed/played a hand in a while

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1145)
Hero (t1550)
MP (t1355)
Button (t1575)
SB (t2375)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises to t1550 (All-In), 2 folds, SB calls t1475, 1 fold.

Flop: (t3250) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t3250) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3250) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3250
---------------------------------------------------------
Game 4

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t820)
Hero (t770)
Button (t875)
SB (t770)
BB (t800)
UTG (t610)
UTG+1 (t860)
UTG+2 (t905)
MP1 (t905)
MP2 (t685)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises to t90, Button raises to t225, 2 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises to t770 (All-In), Button calls t545.

Flop: (t1595) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1595) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1595) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1595
----------------------------------------------------------
Game 5

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1095)
SB (t3202)
BB (t1850)
UTG (t1853)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises to t200, Hero raises to t1095 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG calls t895.

Flop: (t2340) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2340) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2340) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2340

xLukex

07-01-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think I have a leak in my bubble play... I keep losing... but seriously, I seem to always be pushing in the wrong spots (including over the top of opponents that have bet at pot.) Sometimes I win a hand when pushing over the top, but I think I finish OOTM more often as a result of this. This is probably -EV, what do you think (here are a few hands from my other 5 OOTM loses last night... only posted 6 hands)

I would appreciate your feedback.

Game 1

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1275)
UTG (t3260)
MP (t1190)
Button (t875)
SB (t1400)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG raises to t300, 3 folds, Hero raises to t1275 (All-In), UTG calls t975.

Flop: (t2625) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2625) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2625) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2625
-------------------------------------------------------
Game 2 - I had not pushed much...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1090)
SB (t2791)
BB (t1307)
UTG (t1337)
MP (t1475)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t1090 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls t990.

Flop: (t2230) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2230) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2230) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2230
--------------------------------------------------------
Game 3

Hand 1 - villain had done this twice when I had a strong hand

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1320)
Hero (t700)
UTG (t890)
UTG+1 (t1135)
MP1 (t2285)
MP2 (t855)
CO (t385)
Button (t430)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t150, 5 folds, Hero raises to t700 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t550.

Flop: (t1425) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1425) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1425) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1425
*************** **************** *******************
Hand 2 - I pushed about 2-3 hands prior from button w/ A9o, but otherwise had not pushed/played a hand in a while

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1145)
Hero (t1550)
MP (t1355)
Button (t1575)
SB (t2375)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises to t1550 (All-In), 2 folds, SB calls t1475, 1 fold.

Flop: (t3250) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t3250) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t3250) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3250
---------------------------------------------------------
Game 4

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t820)
Hero (t770)
Button (t875)
SB (t770)
BB (t800)
UTG (t610)
UTG+1 (t860)
UTG+2 (t905)
MP1 (t905)
MP2 (t685)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, 2 folds, MP3 calls t15, Hero raises to t90, Button raises to t225, 2 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero raises to t770 (All-In), Button calls t545.

Flop: (t1595) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1595) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1595) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1595
----------------------------------------------------------
Game 5

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t1095)
SB (t3202)
BB (t1850)
UTG (t1853)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG raises to t200, Hero raises to t1095 (All-In), 2 folds, UTG calls t895.

Flop: (t2340) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t2340) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t2340) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t2340

[/ QUOTE ]

Game 1- Good push.

Game 2- Just raise to 300. If he comes over the top, then you fold and take note.

Game 3 #1- Fine
#2- Raise 3x BB

Game 4- Call preflop raise.

Game 5- Good push.

I just think you're over-aggro in some spots.

And if you say that you push in a lot of spots and just raise in a lot of spots, you're surely giving your hand away sometimes.

Most of those hands look fine, and if you're losing them, you're just on a bad run of cards is all.

45suited

07-01-2005, 01:47 PM

Ugh... AJ, KT, and AT are not re-raise all in hands in general. Way too aggressive in re-raising after opponents have shown aggression.

It's so easy to steal blinds, IMO, you are being WAY too aggressive with all your re-raising with marginal hands.

There's a time and place for this, but you also need to pay more attention to stack sizes and the position of the raiser in these spots. You need to give more credit to an UTG raise than a min-raise from the SB, for example.

xLukex

07-01-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ugh... AJ, KT, and AT are not re-raise all in hands in general. Way too aggressive in re-raising after opponent's have shown aggression.

It's so easy to steal blinds, IMO, you are being WAY too aggressive with all your re-raising with marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, the AJ and KT hands are kinda weak.

45suited

07-01-2005, 01:52 PM

Yes, the only one that I would even consider among the KT, AJ, and AT is the AT hand.

adanthar

07-01-2005, 01:54 PM

I am folding around 5 out of 6 of these. Hint: The sixth one is the one that I would actually consider to be 'a hand' when someone has raised.

The Yugoslavian

07-01-2005, 02:02 PM

1. Generally fold but you can Call/Play nice lookin' flops or Stop n Go depending on villian
2. Fold - marginal push under v best circumstances
3a. Fold - it's level 3 dawg...
3b. Fold - too many ppl to act, you have 10xBB - these are the plays that are making all of the very good STTers *love* the new level 5
4. I don't play AKs like this....if you raise that big level 1 then yeah, going allin is probably ok I guess.
5. Fold - you have over 10xBB again....you are even more desperately aggressive than I am/was with 10xBB /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Yugoslav

Dr_Jeckyl_00

07-01-2005, 02:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am folding around 5 out of 6 of these. Hint: The sixth one is the one that I would actually consider to be 'a hand' when someone has raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you please explain why the AT raise is better than the others, and why are the other wrong... beside the fact that I lost (although I did win with one of the hands)? There are similarities among all of them w/ some difference. i.e. I am UTG w/ 2 hands, 2 bets were min bets by villain...

The Yugoslavian

07-01-2005, 02:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am folding around 5 out of 6 of these. Hint: The sixth one is the one that I would actually consider to be 'a hand' when someone has raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here I figured you would most likely play the 1st hand...oh well, so much for my Adanthar ESP, /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

You really push that last hand? Or just if you feel UTG is being fairly loose? I get that it ranks to be your strongest hand based on context out of the examples...but I'm not sure it's better than folding generally.

Yugoslav

liucipher

07-01-2005, 02:12 PM

I see only one hand that is the bubble.

1.) this is very bad
2.) this is also very bad. 10xBB rule is not in effect. you can easily lead out for 250-300 and take it from there.
3.) I think 90% of people here will advocate a fold. At an $11 I'd probably call and see the flop, but that's a leak.
4.) Why? Why why why?
5.) I'd probably do about the same, depending on how good you are. I think if you're a better player you can walk away and find a better edge. If you're me, you push and hope to double through or lose, because the advantage of having a chip lead early on is big to me.
6.) I think this is a fold as well.

45suited

07-01-2005, 02:14 PM

The reason why the AT hand is the only one (of the AT, AJ, and KTs) is because a) the UTG mini-raise is weak and b) OP has enough FE to make the weak raiser fold. That said, I still might fold. Read dependent. (Cop out answer.)

Dr_Jeckyl_00

07-01-2005, 02:16 PM

If I am understanding what you all are telling me, is that I really don't want to be in a raised pot w/o AK, QQ-AA unless I have a great read, and maybe if the risk to my chip stack is minimal (and I have a strong hand vs opponent's small stack, right)? So don't enter pot unless I am first in, or I occassionally can push if there are limpers but NOT raisers...

lastchance

07-01-2005, 02:18 PM

Minraisers are a lot more scary than limpers. Not because they have a better hand, it's because they will call you more.

And without AJ+, 88+, (TT, JJ, AQ) is an insanely good hand no matter who raises), I wouldn't raise over a minraise without a solid read. Getting called with a hand worse than AJ kinda bites.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

07-01-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The reason why the AT hand is the only one (of the AT, AJ, and KTs) is because a) the UTG mini-raise is weak and b) OP has enough FE to make the weak raiser fold. That said, I still might fold. Read dependent. (Cop out answer.)

[/ QUOTE ]

definition: weak = limp or 2xBB bet, strong = 3xBB bet or more. So if I am 1st in push is likely correct w/ strong hand, or weaker hand if I have position and occassionally it is correct to push strong hands over weak bets (as just defined), but fold to strong bets and raises (but take into consideration stack sizes and opponents)?

lastchance

07-01-2005, 02:24 PM

Give raises respect, and you will be fine. FE is all important. Against raisers of any kind, you have no FE.

The Yugoslavian

07-01-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I am understanding what you all are telling me, is that I really don't want to be in a raised pot w/o AK, QQ-AA unless I have a great read, and maybe if the risk to my chip stack is minimal (and I have a strong hand vs opponent's small stack, right)? So don't enter pot unless I am first in, or I occassionally can push if there are limpers but NOT raisers...

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends...there are no hard and fast rules. Eastbay said it best once but I'm going to butcher what he said attempting to paraphrase: poekr is about applying a finite set of concepts to an infinite set of situations. You need to understand the general concepts...then work on applying them correctly (neither is that easy).

Generally, if you have 10xBB you aren't in like desperation mode...so pick a spot where you have enough of an edge to warrant the risk of busting you're taking on. I like a lot of these hands better when you're a much shorter stack b/c you usually have to take any perceived edge you can find.

Also, having a good feel for who is strong when minraising and who is weak is very, very helpful but this obviously isn't always apparent....so you have to be careful.

But yeah, in the $11s it can't be a huge mistake if you just only enter raised pots with premium hands (unless you've identified a maniac)...b/c patience is more likely to be paid off at this level than any others (well higher ones anyway).

Yugoslav

The Yugoslavian

07-01-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Against raisers of any kind, you have no FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the $11s this is somewhat true...once someone has shown interest in their hand, they are usually willing to take it to showdown, however, it's silly to say you have none...b/c this simply isn't true unless someone has gone allin.

Yugoslav

45suited

07-01-2005, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Give raises respect, and you will be fine. FE is all important. Against raisers of any kind, you have no FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, Dr. Jeckyl: There's no simple clear cut formula. But I can tell you the factors that I look at:

1) Position
2) Actions of players who have acted before me
3) Relative stack sizes
4) My stack vs. the size of the blinds
5) My reads on the other players
6) My hand

I think that you are placing far too much importance on #6 when actually in bubble spots, the first 5 factors are frequently more important.

lastchance

07-01-2005, 02:34 PM

Give me a bit of leeway. It is painfully hard to make raisers give up their hand and that sucks unless your hand is awesome, and I was trying to make that point effectively.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

07-01-2005, 02:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, Dr. Jeckyl: There's no simple clear cut formula. But I can tell you the factors that I look at:

1) Position
2) Actions of players who have acted before me
3) Relative stack sizes
4) My stack vs. the size of the blinds
5) My reads on the other players
6) My hand

I think that you are placing far too much importance on #6 when actually in bubble spots, the first 5 factors are frequently more important.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I am trying to understand position, but I seem to still pick the wrong hands.

2. You are absolutely correct. I don't respect opponents enough.

3-4. Would you please elaborate. What am I looking for? What am I safe, when do I panic? I thought that once I got to 10xBB I should start panicing...

5. I have been working very hard on this. I have done well when I identify a super tight opponents and maniacs, but have trouble knowing how to play everyone else.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

07-01-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Give me a bit of leeway. It is painfully hard to make raisers give up their hand and that sucks unless your hand is awesome, and I was trying to make that point effectively.

[/ QUOTE ]

given my weaknesses I will assume no FE against raisers... for now

45suited

07-01-2005, 02:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What am I safe, when do I panic? I thought that once I got to 10xBB I should start panicing...

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely no need to panic with 10XBB. The new blind structure rewards patience even more. Let the other guys panic with 10BB.

lastchance

07-01-2005, 02:53 PM

1. Position - The less active players around you, the more FE you have. This is good. If there's one player to act, you can push 23o where you wouldn't if there were two.

3. I don't use this as much because at the $10's, people call you anyway, but if you have someone covered, their range should tighten up a lot more as compared to when their stack is much bigger than yours. This is a lot of ICM stuff.

4. The fewer BB you have, the more you need to push. 10x BB isn't desperation mode, that only happens around 5x BB, IMO. It just means you can't raise 3x BB anymore. The less BB you have, the more you push. It isn't one jump, it's a series of jumps.

5. Reads are always good.

adanthar

07-01-2005, 06:56 PM

Uhh, guys? I meant the AKs, not the AT /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

These are the 11's not the 109's, just because they minraised doesn't mean they will fold to a reraise, ever