I think flags have lost their power

sure, look around at all the nice flags all the nice soccer moms have on their minivans while they drive the kids to band practice and go grocery shopping. all the great flags in the windows of the office buildings i see (and work in) everyday, while the people in the offices are praying to god that the economy just gets better so their stocks don't go down. the flags are supposed to symbolize a unity, and support for the country. (i personally have little faith in the U.S. and how great it is. this is definitely part of my skepticism). but these flags are used instead of action. do you think the people who are trying to clean up new york and the pentagon care if flag sales are up? does it do them any more good that 65% of the cars driving on the highways across the country now display flags and slogans like 'we'll never forget'? this is why i say that the flag has lost its power. it symbolizes, but i don't feel proud or empowered every time i see a flag. and it makes people feel better about not doing anything to help. i haven't done anything to help, ill admit, but i don't go waving flags around and think this fulfills my 'duty as an american' whatever that means. ill respond to comments, but please understand that im not an ungrateful punk, but that i've put a lot of thought into this topic.

I see your idea and although I don't fully agree with it I think you make some good points. I think that a lot of these people are just jumping on a trendy bandwagon, but I don't think it's bad. You know, this reminds me of those people that have lost a loved one through cancer or something. You know the type- they don't give a sh!t about some cause until it hits home, then they dive in and become the local advocate for the cause they now are so into. But if this tragedy had never hit them then they wouldn't give a second thought about the charity.

Also, I have less faith in this country then most people, but my reasons are different then most. In a nutshell I think liberals are the greatest cause of decay in our society- and ultra conseratives aren't good either, so don't assume that I'm one of them.

I think people fly flags for many different reasons. I suppose if you believe that flying a flag is the start to finish answer for what you need to do, something is very wrong. I don't think many people believe this. Some people don't really get what the flag symbolizes (like when they have a Confederate flag along with an American flag on their jacked-up truck.) I don't believe that flying a flag proves my patriotism. I will have the same feeling about my country whether I fly a flag or not. As I said in my post below, I would like to fly a flag sometimes regardless of the current world events. But there are things I won't do to have a flag. I am the same person regardless. But I think we are a great nation and am very glad I live here. I suppose there are other good places to live, but I would not give up my United States citizenship for anything. One reason is that we have both the freedom and obligation to think about what our country does and talk about it. I like the fact that people have the freedom to burn the flag, although I think that's a stupid form of speech. I like the fact you feel uneasy about the shows of patriotism and can talk about it without fear of reprisal.

Flags never really had any power, so how could they lose it. Like any other symbol flags are used to signify something. The Stars and Stripes is the most widely recognized symbol for the USA such as a cross is the most recognized symbol for Christianity and the Star of David for Judaism. The fact that someone displays a symbol simply means they want people to associate them with the symbol. The absence of a symbol does not necessarily mean that allegiance or respect or devotion is not present. It could simply mean that a person does not feel it is either necessary or advantageous to be labeled in such a manner. An observant Jew does not think twice about wearing a skull cap on the streets of NYC but if he has a business trip to Buenos Aires he probably would be better off not. He is not less proud of being Jewish, or less observant in Argentina, just prudent.


As to the USA flag it means more to our enemies than it does to us. If burning an American flag on the streets of Pakistan or Indonesia in someway satisfies a need to destroy something that symbolizes America I would suggest we send them all the flags we can. If, as you say, displaying an American flag gives the displayer the sense of having accomplished something, burning a flag gives the protestor the sense of having accomplished something.


I love the fact that our enemies hate the flag, that to me is reason enough to display it.

I got a great laugh when I walked out of a downtown mall after a film let out a few weekends ago and saw a Mom and girl in a minivan flying a flag--Skull and Crossbones. Very cool.


KJS

I won't fault you for not being proud of America because that is your personal choice, but I would like to point something out. You would almost surely feel even less proud of your country if you lived in a country chosen randomly by throwing a dart at a spinning globe.

As a rather accomplished poker player I'm sure you realize that the chances of him hitting land by throwing a dart at a spinning globe are 3 out of 10.

Very good...so we will give him, say, four throws at a distance of ten feet. If he still misses land every time it just wasn't his day.

that i can throw a dart with some accuracy. (some, not much, but id have an edge over, say, a guy with a cast on his arm.) i don't see, however, why this analogy is used. why not say id feel better being an american than being a native citizen of any other nation in the world? or is it the random nature of citizenship that devalues it?

i think im on the same page with goat. i also appreciate the fact that the very country i am badmouthing here is the one that allows me to do so freely and openly. there are many things about living in america that i can appreciate, and the freedom is one of them. i have a backpack that a couple years ago i sewed on a patch of the flag upside down. i didn't even think of that for a long time until recently. i wondered if anybody would notice. so far nobody has and i have it with me quite frequently. i guess the root of the issue is conformity. the flags are an example of this. people go out and get flags and put them on their desks, and windows, and cars, and houses, and mailboxes, and everyone feels so good about their flag. but this feeling allows the mind to numb. it allows people (a large part of america) to become complacent, and instead of thinking about problems and solutions, and ethics, and being very very scared, and sad and shocked, and accepting that life has changed forever in this country, they stick a flag in their window. that's what the nation is doing to fight this thing, right? and tshirt companies and sticker-making companies and hat companies and flag companies are making a bundle on this. (im not saying all americans become complacent, and im not saying that the 'Sept. 11th paraphernalia' revenues are all for private profit) sure there are charities being run to aid in the aftermath. but it seems like somehow these people think they are better than me because they have a flag. except they don't think it, it is all part and parcel with getting the flag. it is ingrained in the process of conformity. i feel like i can't express my thoughts very precisely on here. perhaps i need to think more on this topic. but for some reason i just loathe flags.

Simply because there could be a handful of countries which you might prefer in this sense. I doubt, however, that there would be a great many.

"I like the fact that people have the freedom to burn the flag, although I think that's a stupid form of speech."


How so, HDPM?

One of my favorite comments about the post 9/11 patriotism came from a former hippie.


"This is the first time I've waved a flag in years that hasn't been on fire."

Burning the flag is typically done in street protests. It is an act of physical destruction that is designed to vent rage and express the lowest political thoughts. It will never persuade any thinking person over to your point of view. It might incite emotional morons to either agree with you or beat you up. It accomplishes nothing. And really, what does it say? It says that the person doing the burning wants to destroy the United States. If they are a foreign enemy I guess that means we're fixing for a fight. If the flag burner is a citizen it means they don't understand how great America is, blemishes and bad acts and all. The freedom of speech has been used by intelligent people to fix all kinds of problems that needed to be fixed. Flag burning has never done that. Besides, you can catch on fire, as that hilarious video from Pakistan has shown recently. Although I have said before on this forum that it takes a real protester to self-immolate, accidental self-immolation doesn't count and just makes people laugh at you. I might step to the defense of a protester I disagreed with who was getting beat up by a thug, but if you catch yourself on fire burning a flag you are on your own. /images/smile.gif

The Republican I detest the most is probably John McCain. I think his position on freedom of speech is horrible, whether it's his stance on flag burning or campaign finance reform. He would also be very quick to curtail other liberties like Nevada's right to allow legal spots betting or my right to have a gun. He is completely against personal freedom. But he has seen how badly the freedoms we have can be misused, so it is hard to criticize him. He kind of gets a free pass on a lot of criticism because he was tortured for years. But the solution would have been to prosecute the people who crossed the line in the Vietnam era and actually committed treason. An expensive and stupid constitutional amendment is not the way to go to repair past or future wrongs.

Flag burning has sort of passed to the back-burner (pun intended) as an issue. I remember flag-buring during the Vietnam era. It was done as a protest against United States policies, which the protesters saw, correctly in my viewpoint, as immoral. I don't think it was intended to sway people over to their views. I would think it had the opposite effect.


I don't think it said that the burners wanted to destroy the United States. It is not basically an emotional response, but rather a caluculated one, designed to get the protesters onto the evening news. If flying the flag can express a person's agreement with what their country is doing, burning the flag can certain express a person's disagreement. I agree with you that those who would be incited to violence by this act are emotionally immature.


Remember the other things that were burned during the '60s and '70s? Draft cards and bras. The draft card burnings were of a piece with the flag burnings, to express disdain for the Vietnam war. Women who burned their bras did so symbolically as well, claiming they were freeing themselves (literally and figuratively) from the constrictions placed on them by the male-dominated society. Again, the purpose was to get onto the evening news.


To the extent that buring of flags or bras does get you noticed, it is achieving that which it was designed to accomplish.

I'm not up on McCain's postions on issues, but I think you're probably correct that the media gives him more latitude because of what he went through during the war. He has the image of a "maverick" which they like too, and since his stances seem to make him a more "liberal" republican than the run-of-the-mill variety, this too makes him something of a darling to them.


To me, the people who committed treason and "crossed the line" in the Vietnan era are not those who tried to stop the killing, but our leaders who lied and murdered. Those are the people who should be prosecuted, those are the people who violated the principles of our great country, not the peace protesters.


We should also prosecute those who won't let us have free call drinks when we give them 14 hours worth of action. :-)

I agree that run-of-the-mill war protesters did not commit treason (although some make the argument that they helped the North Vietnamese). However, the people who paid for VC supplies did. So did Jane Fonda and those who went to North Vietnam to stand with the enemy.


Driving to Elko to talk to a prosecutor about the lack of free call drinks is a cure worse than the disease. :-)