Live to fight another Day?

[lil feller]

Small B&M tournament. $100+10, 61 players entered.
3k in starting chips, blinds 25/50 no rebuys. 20 min Rounds.

The blinds are 200/400. I'm in the BB. One MP open-limps. Folded to me w/ J /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. At this point I know nothing about the limper, other than every time i've seen him bet & show, he's had at least top pair, but i'd seen him call decent sized bets with as little as bottom pair. Essentially passive but tenacious. Will fold nothing, not much else.

Flop:

A /images/graemlins/club.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet 1200 (I have 2900 total). He hesitates for a very small moment then calls.

Turn:

2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

My plan? Should I have checked the flop?

lf

[bruin]

I don't like your bet on the flop. You pretty much commit yourself to the pot betting almost half of your chips, and it's just a draw. I put the villain on A-x here.

I wouldn't mind a push on the turn and cross your fingers, since leaving yourself with only 1700 at that structure does not sound good to me.

[AceofSpades]

"every time i've seen him bet & show, he's had at least top pair, but i'd seen him call decent sized bets with as little as bottom pair. Essentially passive but tenacious. Will fold nothing, not much else."

Given your read (opponent betting top pair and calling underpairs) and since you have a good draw why just check and hope to see a free card here? Even if he does have Ax and bets he might give you a cheaper price at the draw than
you gave yourself.

check-calling it down might seem a bit weak but you said your opponent won't fold if he has a hand here.

[TxDozerMan]

Why bet into a calling station without a made hand? These are the guys you ONLY value bet at.

[nightlyraver]

I would like to know more about this player. If he will open limp with any ace and then call it down if an ace flops, then I may check-call the flop. If he tends not to bet a marginal holding when checked to (but will call a bet) then I would be even more inclined to check the flop OR bet the flop and check the turn. If he will call with a mediocre holding if the flush card hits on the end, then I'm even more likely to play passively until I make my hand since I know he probably won't fold and he probably will pay me off if I make my hand. Really all depends on his level of sophistication. You bet strong draws in order to build a decent pot that you have a good chance of winning AND to possibly win it uncontested. If betting is unnecessary regarding those two goals, there is no point.

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
Why bet into a calling station without a made hand? These are the guys you ONLY value bet at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for 2 reasons. If I get a call from any hand that doesn't contain an Ace, I am value betting.

Secondly, he will throw away JT, KQ, KJ, or any other various non-pair hands that still beat me, and I can win without making my draw. Is that incorrect?

lf

[LuvDemNutz]

How about a flop checkraise all-in?

[lil feller]

[ QUOTE ]
How about a flop checkraise all-in?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about that. Against a less tenacious opponent I probably would have tried it. I felt, however, that he would call anything he would bet with here, but might fold something he'd check with. Combine that with the fact that the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif was not on board, and on of his most likely holdings was Ax, it was possible that I was drawing dead.

lf

[Danny H.]

I disagree with your play, 1200 is way too much to bet against a calling station with only 800 in the pot. Doyle Brunson said in his book to out play weaker players not out maneuver. I play in a family game ever so often and I usually lost there but won against the better players, why? Because when I bluffed there, they'd call with just an ace high. If you go up against a calling station, bet a small amount on the flop but you don't try to bluff b/c it will only encourage his calling you b/c he'll think you bluff all the time now. Wait until you get better cards and then get your chips in and hope you don't get sucked out.

[lil feller]

Judging by the responses, it seems the best play would have been to grossly underbet the pot (but I'm still not sure about that) or to check on the flop.

At any rate, I checked the turn. He went all-in and I folded.

lf