43o river c/r

[QTip]

MP1 starts off with 8.5 small bets.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

River: (4.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

[Catt]

What is the purpose of your river C/R?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the purpose of your river C/R?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that the river betting was stacking off, and 1 pair probably beat his bluff. I wasn't sure about the player behind me, but wanted to get rid of any other pair. The pot wasn't big, so I wasn't sure about this move...which is why I posted it.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is the purpose of your river C/R?

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that the river betting was stacking off, and 1 pair probably beat his bluff. I wasn't sure about the player behind me, but wanted to get rid of any other pair. The pot wasn't big, so I wasn't sure about this move...which is why I posted it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I asked because there could be a variety of reasons to do this (probably would have been clearer to ask "what were you intending to accomplish?").

I thought the small stack was MP1, the guy behind you?

If you think MP2 is bluffing, there is almost no value to a raise (absent an unusual read). A pure bluff should fold to the raise, and any hand that calls your raise should beat you. If MP2 is silly enough to bet and then call a C/R with nothing, OK, but I really haven't come across to many of these players.

A raise can be good when you think you may be ahead (but might not be) and when you think that the player to act behind may very well have you beat but would be hard-pressed to call two cold on the river. In this case, I don't think we have any evidence to suspect that MP1 has us beat, especially since he already checked the river when checked to. He's short-stacked -- lots of guys playing short-stacked put the money in with marginal hands of course, but I don't think they are quite so likely to throw 2 BBs in on a river that they already checked -- they usually, IMHO, put the chips in over aggressively with marginal hands that have some chance of winning.

So, I'm not sure if a C/R to drive MP1 out is a good play, and I'm not sure C/Ring a probable bluffer has any value. I think it's pretty darn rare that you get another BB from a bluff, but you get called by hands that can beat bottom pair. I don't like the river C/R.

[poker-penguin]

You, sir, have balls of steel.

Does anyone think there's enough of a chance that either of the MPs have a pair of 6s or 5s they could be persuaded to lay down because of the CR?
I guess And that MP1 would check call for one but not two with a hand that is better than Hero's bottom pair?

Otherwise, I think you're only getting called by hands that have you beat.

My gut reaction would be - bet the river. I think it gets you to showdown cheaper and has more fold equity. Or were you trying to induce a bet from MP2?

[QTip]

MP1 is the short stack and MP2 is the call down with any piece player.

I wasn't planning on making a move in this hand. I just wanted to see it checked around and watch it go to middle pair or something stupid.

Then, MP2 takes a bit and throw in 1 of his couple big bets left and I changed my mind. I thought I could beat him, but wasn't sure about MP2, so I thought quickly that I would get rid of him.

I like your analysis (thanks btw), but I need to give it more thought.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 is the short stack and MP2 is the call down with any piece player.

I wasn't planning on making a move in this hand. I just wanted to see it checked around and watch it go to middle pair or something stupid.

Then, MP2 takes a bit and throw in 1 of his couple big bets left and I changed my mind. I thought I could beat him, but wasn't sure about MP2, so I thought quickly that I would get rid of him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am still very confused (or you are). MP1 is the shortstack; I will refer to him as "Shortstack"; MP2 calls down; I will refer to him as "Calls Down.".

You bet the flop and Shortstack and Calls Down both call. Everyone checks the turn. On the river, you and Shortstack check; Calls Down bets; and you C/R with Shortstack to act behind.

Is this correct?

[QTip]

[censored]! I'm sorry Catt! I'm the one screwing it up.

River: Sucky hero checks, "Calls Down" checks, "Shortstack" bets, Sucky hero believes he's bluffing but isn't sure whether "Calls Down" has a piece of the board and if he does, sucky hero is going to lose so sucky hero raises because he can beat a bluff.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
[censored]! I'm sorry Catt! I'm the one screwing it up.

River: Sucky hero checks, "Calls Down" checks, "Shortstack" bets, Sucky hero believes he's bluffing but isn't sure whether "Calls Down" has a piece of the board and if he does, sucky hero is going to lose so sucky hero raises because he can beat a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me like the river C/R a lot more, as there is a bit more of a reason to believe that Calls Down could actually have a naked 5 or 6 and be inclined to fold it facing 2 cold on the river. I'd still want to know that there is a decent chance that Calls Down doesn't also call 2 cold with any piece, so I am not convinced that the C/R is a good play here; but I like it a lot more than I did the first time around /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[censored]! I'm sorry Catt! I'm the one screwing it up.

River: Sucky hero checks, "Calls Down" checks, "Shortstack" bets, Sucky hero believes he's bluffing but isn't sure whether "Calls Down" has a piece of the board and if he does, sucky hero is going to lose so sucky hero raises because he can beat a bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

This makes me like the river C/R a lot more, as there is a bit more of a reason to believe that Calls Down could actually have a naked 5 or 6 and be inclined to fold it facing 2 cold on the river. I'd still want to know that there is a decent chance that Calls Down doesn't also call 2 cold with any piece, so I am not convinced that the C/R is a good play here; but I like it a lot more than I did the first time around /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this would be a hard call, even for a calling station. There's a straight potential on that river card, but even without that, I don't think there are many players that will call 2 cold in a small pot with a small pair. He wasn't that bad.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this would be a hard call, even for a calling station. There's a straight potential on that river card, but even without that, I don't think there are many players that will call 2 cold in a small pot with a small pair. He wasn't that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. It was a nice same-street adjustment (I presume that you would not have overcalled an MP1 bet and MP2 call). And I don't like a lead on the river, so I presume you were checking with the intention of folding in many circumstances but the nature of the action and the players involved opened up a nice opportunity to try something in a decent-sized pot.

The reason I'm not convinced it is good is you are still looking at the following parlay: (1) MP1 folds facing 2 cold and (2) either MP2 folds a bluff or stupidly calls the raise with A-high or some such no-pair hand. Some "Calls Down" sorts of players call down regardless of the number of bets they have to put in, just waiting for the SD to see if they win; but if there's any reason to think that Calls Down would react appropriately to facing 2 cold on the river, the parlay starts to look more doable. You're getting 5.5 to 2 on this parlay, which may be enough. My experience with most short-staked players is that they are willing to put chips in with very marginal hands and marginal draws (but the draws are done by the river) - so I'd say if I make this C/R I'm hoping for two folds and reasonably unhappy when MP2 calls the raise.

[QTip]

If MP1 bet, I would have folded no matter if MP2 called or not.

There were some things to go right, that's for sure. Actually even when I saw him call, I was thinking I might have this one. People at the felt do stupid, stupid things.

I really felt like it was a fold or raise situation. I thought the chance that he was bluffing was high enough to throw in 2 here.

Perhaps I did get a bit lucky here as he "turned over" KQo and MHIG.

[Willluck]

tough to say w/o reads, but I think I like it.

[QTip]

It's MP2 that's shortstacked

[QTip]

I wanted to get some thoughts on this from the daytime crowd. I gave this some thought this morning as well, and I think I'm really starting to like this play more and more.

Please note that I messed up the OP, it was the river better who was short stacked.

[thejameser]

i had some issues until you pointed out the river bettor was short. i kind of like it. you would have to be very selective on who you use it against, but it can be a good line in a hand with a good draw that doesn't come through but you pick up a piece of the board late in a passively played pot.

[Guruman]

Q-tip: living on the edge. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

nh

[Redd]

Seems pretty weird at first glance, but after some consideration (that I could never do in game time), raising seems like the only real choice. I'd agree that it's a raise-or-fold situation, and you can't fold what might be the best hand.

Let's assume that you have short stack beat often enough to call. You're investing an extra 1BB in the hopes of gaining a 6.5BB pot; so he'll need to have and fold a better hand about 13% of the time for a raise to be +EV. Say villain has a middling pair 30% of the time, then he needs to fold it about 40% of the time that he has it for a raise to be +EV. These seem like attainable numbers to me?