folding draws to an 8 before the first draw (TD 2-7)

[MarkGritter]

The SS2 chapter on triple draw recomments targeting one opponent or the blinds with the playable 1-card draws to an 8 and includes the comment "these hands are too good to fold."

But some of the weaker ones, like 3568x or 2678x, will often require you to fold or break on later streets.

If you hold 3568x (to pick one of the not-so-breakable hands), what do you do:

1. In early position to enter.
2. In early position after a limper.
3. In early position against a raise.
4. On the button with one limper.
5. On the button with one hand raised to enter.
6. On the button against a raise and a call.
7. On the button against a raise and a reraise.
8. One off the button against a raise and a call.
9. In the blinds against 2 or more limpers.
10. In the big blind vs. a raiser.
11. In the big blind vs. a raise and a call.
12. In the big blind vs. a raise and a reraise.
13. In early position after you raise and it comes back capped.

Feel free to express your answer in a more compact form. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

What if you hold an 8, a 2, and two wheel cards?

EDIT: Oops, I meant one wheel card, but Tim's already answered.

[timprov]

If you hold 3568x (to pick one of the not-so-breakable hands), what do you do:

1. In early position to enter.

Raise.

2. In early position after a limper.

Raise.

3. In early position against a raise.

Most of the time reraise.

4. On the button with one limper.

Raise.

5. On the button with one hand raised to enter.

Most of the time reraise.

6. On the button against a raise and a call.

Usually muck.

7. On the button against a raise and a reraise.

Muck.

8. One off the button against a raise and a call.

Usually muck.

9. In the blinds against 2 or more limpers.

Call.

10. In the big blind vs. a raiser.

Call.

11. In the big blind vs. a raise and a call.

Call, play carefully.

12. In the big blind vs. a raise and a reraise.

Usually muck.

13. In early position after you raise and it comes back capped.

Call I guess. I don't think I've ever seen this happen against players I respect. In that case I might fold.

In all these cases I'm drawing one, of course.

What if you hold an 8, a 2, and two wheel cards?

I'll raise/reraise 6 and 8 (ETA: and 9-11) and call a little more often in 12. In 13 I'd seriously consider drawing 2.

EDIT: with 832:

1-2 Raise
3 depends just about entirely on the raiser
4 Raise
5 Reraise sometimes, call sometimes.
6 Call
7 Muck
8 Call
9 Raise
10-11 Call
12 Usually muck
13 Call

[MarkGritter]

[ QUOTE ]

1. In early position to enter.
2. In early position after a limper.
3. In early position against a raise.
4. On the button with one limper.
5. On the button with one hand raised to enter.
6. On the button against a raise and a call.
7. On the button against a raise and a reraise.
8. One off the button against a raise and a call.
9. In the blinds against 2 or more limpers.
10. In the big blind vs. a raiser.
11. In the big blind vs. a raise and a call.
12. In the big blind vs. a raise and a reraise.
13. In early position after you raise and it comes back capped.


[/ QUOTE ]

I raise and reraise #1-5.

#6-8. I will call or make it 3 bets on the strength of position, but I think this is a leak.

#9 I raise from the SB. I usually raise from the BB.

#10 Call unless I suspect a steal, then reraise.

#11 Call.

#12 Feel deeply uncomfortable, then call.

#13 Feel even more uncomfortable, then call.

Note that I did not find a fold here. I suspect that might be a problem.

With 832:

#1-#3: Fold in early position.
#4: Raise against a limper.
#5: Reraise. I suspect this might be a mistake, unless up against a very loose player.
#6-#8: Fold against two likely better hands.
#9: Raise, I hate limpers.
#10-#11: Call to defend blind getting 3:1 or 5:1.
#12: Fold against two likely better hands. You're getting 3.5:1 odds vs. two players--- but there is also the danger of getting it capped.
#13: Don't get in this situation.

[randomstumbl]

I'll raise first in from any position.

I'll reraise from the button or cutoff unless the original raiser is fairly tight...then I'll probably call.

Out of position, I'm usually going to repop this. I don't like people raising my blinds. This play discourages that. If it's a tight player or an UTG raise, I'll give them credit and lean towards calling though.

People limping suck at TDL, I'm raising unless I think this pot is going to be 6 way. Even if I think it is going to be 6 way, I'm raising with the smoother one card 8's.

Hands like, 87xx probably don't have a lot of value at a full table without a wheel draw to fall back on. Then again, I'd still play them aggressively with position on an opponent.

Edited to add: Knew I'd forget to answer some of those questions.

I'm doing what everyone else said and mucking this to a re-raise (unless they're maniacs). Against a raise and call, the opponents' playing styles are going to make the decision for me.

[MarkGritter]

What about the situations where you're facing two opponents already in for 2-3 bets?

[randomstumbl]

I edited that first post already, but I put some more thought into it.

It's hard to give a general rule about what to do with 2 players in for a raise or reraise. Sometimes I'm feeling happy to get money in the pot. Other times, I'm wondering if I can fold it.

I think it's a situation where knowing your opponents is more important than usual. The only rule is that I'd never fold this for one more bet in the big blind.

[fnord_too]

I'll just answer in general, and I am not sure I play this optimally. I play this hand aggressively preflop. Out of the blinds, I will reraise a limps or what looks like a steal attempt, otherwise just call. An EP raise followed by a reraise an I probably muck this, but it really depends on conditions.

Not in the blinds, I don't mind a raise in front of me at all since I can probably isolate with a reraise, and get to play the hand in position. I don't mind a lot of limpers because no one raising means they are probably on 2 card draws (or worse) and also that the stub is likely thin, which I belive favors me with a one card draw a lot. Also, position rules, so I really don't mind playing this hand against multiple opponents if I am in position.

With 2ww8 I go to town. This is a very strong hand with up to 8 outs to a smooth 8. If I raise and get reraised by someone with position on me, I definitely yield the initiative. I don't have a problem reraising from the blinds with this hand against a legitimate open raise since it is such a strong hand and is ahead of so many legitimate open raises. (That is, this is a hand you can almost always put in the second raise for value with IMO).

I need to get back to hammering out some math on TD, but I think these one card draws to smooth 8's are pretty strong.

Edit - having read the thread. In position against a raise and a call, I may call or reraise depending on conditions. For instance, a weak caller I want to trap in the middle even if the opener is likely ahead of me, since unless I am up against a pat 86 or 7 I am pretty sure I have > 1/3 equity, especially in position.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
What about the situations where you're facing two opponents already in for 2-3 bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

two opponents for 3 bets is entirely dependant on the opponents in my book. In position, I think you probably still have equity to call, but I don't think mucking against two reasonable opponents is bad either. The real problem here is that you have to be able to get away from good made hands later on, and that is not easy when the pot gets large. I guess that is reverse implied odds. Out of the BB it is really tricky since you are getting > 3:1 but are going to be OOP the rest of the hand. From the sb against a legitimate raise and reraise I think this 3468 is a muck.