Going to borgata, what limit should I play?? [Archive]

MisterKing

06-30-2005, 11:59 PM

Well, the rake at 1/2 limit is probably the worst in all of online poker (if you're on party), so stepping over to 2/4 isn't an enormous change, at least as a relative matter. In essense you'd be going from the most heavily raked online game to the most heavily raked live one.

Problem with any of the games mentioned (2/4 or 3/6) is that the play is so horrendous that you could play perfect and take a $200 loss or more over a 6 hour session. You could, on the flip side, pull $400 or more out of the game as well, though both of these extremes are a lot less likely that something closer to break even. I too would recommend the 6/12 if you can emotionally and financially bear the risk (quoting the wise Mike Gallo here). The games are about the same in difficulty as Party 1/2 or 2/4, and the rake is much less onerous.

However if you think you'd miss even one bet playing with scared money at 6/12, then stick to 3/6. The games are insanely soft. By the way, when are you going? I'll be up at Borgata 7/6 thru 7/9 and would be happy to sit a few orbits with you (at whatever limit) if you're there at the same time.

mithong

07-01-2005, 12:03 AM

thanks for the help... also, while we're at it lemme ask a couple of other questions

Should i expect any "goodies" playing at the 3-6 tables? Free drinks, free food, etc?

how much should i be tipping the dealer?

Brain

07-01-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
thanks for the help... also, while we're at it lemme ask a couple of other questions

Should i expect any "goodies" playing at the 3-6 tables? Free drinks, free food, etc?

how much should i be tipping the dealer?

[/ QUOTE ]

Free drinks at the Borg (bottled beer is good and the only room in AC, I think). I toss my dealer and hot waitress a white chip.

smb394

07-01-2005, 12:12 AM

Free bottles of Corona too...tip $1...

Play $3/6, the game is ultra-soft. I would not recommned $6-12 if you are worried about the swings.

Mike Gallo

07-01-2005, 12:29 AM

If you have $1,000 to play with take a shot at the $6-$12 game.

Tip the dealer a $1.00 and tip the waitresses a $1.00.
The Borgata serves a few varieties of bottled beer and top shelf liquor.

Post a report.

CCx

07-01-2005, 01:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be up at Borgata 7/6 thru 7/9

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be there on the 9th as well...

mithong

07-01-2005, 01:50 AM

no, butthis 1000 is my whole poker bankroll ... i guess i shouldnt be playing 6-12 with this if i dont plan on ever depositing money again right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

MisterKing

07-01-2005, 02:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
no, butthis 1000 is my whole poker bankroll ... i guess i shouldnt be playing 6-12 with this if i dont plan on ever depositing money again right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct.

MisterKing

07-01-2005, 02:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll be up at Borgata 7/6 thru 7/9

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be there on the 9th as well...

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool man, I still owe you from earlier this year when you were kind enough to put me on the list while I was driving up on I-95. I presume the 6/12 is still your main game at Borgata?

Jeffage

07-01-2005, 08:34 AM

I'll be there that whole weekend as well. Maybe I'll run into you guys.

Jeff

sekrah

07-01-2005, 08:51 AM

I'm going that same weekend with some friends.. getting there Friday Night.. We got a room at the Showboat so we'll probably be playing there Friday night.. Probably Borgata on Saturday, but I might play in the Tropicana $100 multi Saturday morning if I can wake up early enough and get over ther.e

sekrah

07-01-2005, 09:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Problem with any of the games mentioned (2/4 or 3/6) is that the play is so horrendous that you could play perfect and take a $200 loss or more over a 6 hour session.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on.. It takes a major adjustment of strategy to crush the fish. Position and discipline is critical..

I won't hesitate one second chucking away A-K with a A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif flop if there's 5-6 in the pot betting, raising, and calling after that flop in front of me. I won't call 2 SB's here.. I already know that I'm up against two spades, 6-7, 7-10, 6-9, J-8 and Q-9.. Leaving me pretty much 2,3,4 minus the spades, plus 2 (ace and king, non spade), 8 cards that must come up in the final two cards for me to win.

Pairs and Suited connectors and wait for your monsters/Pot Odds is my tactics for these Donks.

MisterKing

07-01-2005, 09:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Problem with any of the games mentioned (2/4 or 3/6) is that the play is so horrendous that you could play perfect and take a $200 loss or more over a 6 hour session.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right on.. It takes a major adjustment of strategy to crush the fish. Position and discipline is critical..

I won't hesitate one second chucking away A-K with a A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif flop if there's 5-6 in the pot betting, raising, and calling after that flop in front of me. I won't call 2 SB's here.. I already know that I'm up against two spades, 6-7, 7-10, 6-9, J-8 and Q-9.. Leaving me pretty much 2,3,4 minus the spades, plus 2 (ace and king, non spade), 8 cards that must come up in the final two cards for me to win.

Pairs and Suited connectors and wait for your monsters/Pot Odds is my tactics for these Donks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, no offense but I want to sit at your table man. AK has a huge equity edge in the hand you just described. Sometimes you'll be reverse dominated, sometimes you'll be up against draws that hit, but much of the time (far more than 1/5 or 1/6 if its 5- or 6-handed) you'll be best and take the pot. The most profitable strategies at low stakes also happen to carry the highest variance... so be it.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 09:59 AM

I'll be there /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

I probably do have correct pot odds to call, but so does everybody else with there draws.. even with just 4 other opponents, with 6-7 spades, 7-10, j-8, q-9, I am about almost 7:1 (3rd favorite) to win the pot..

I prefer to avoid high variance situations in these types of games.. I can be a very patient player, but my emotional/psychological meters start going off the gauges and it can ruin my night when my a 3 hits the river and one of the guys turn over 9-3o..

I think it's +EV for me to avoid a high variance situation that'll put me on Tilt for the next hour.

You can come sit with me anytime you wish.. You already know what I like to do /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

sfer

07-01-2005, 10:21 AM

Actually, your equity edge isn't huge but contemplating folding is just as retarded as folding a 4 flush getting offered 8 to 1.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 10:40 AM

Again.. Is it worth the risk of being put on tilt by the likely junk two pair I'm going to see on the river??

I already know I'm going to have to put in atleast two SB to call the bet/raise in front of me... There's no point in 3 betting it on the button is there?

The whole scenario assumes that I know I have the best hand on the Flop, and there's a chance that I don't (A-8, A-9, 8-9, 8-8, 9-9)

When I have to call another one or two BB on the turn, with the chances going up that I'm already beaten and paying off the best hand at the end with another BB.

Again, this is a typical 5-6 handed pot at 2/4 or 3/6 Borgata.. Which hand would you rather have in this pot? A-K, TPTK, or the 6-7 of spades which will win a gigantic pot about 40-50% of the time.

I'd rather avoid these situations than let these donks get my blood pressure up and my fuse lit.

Cheap Flops.. Flop Big or Go Home. You'll flop plenty enough open-end straight and flush draws (and/or both, like the 6-7 spades in the scenario) to give you +EV with 5-6 in the pot.

When it gets down to 2 or 3 fishes, obviously this changes.. I'm not giving up TPTK so easily.

Just my theory of how to beat these games, and it's worked pretty well for me so far.

Jeffage

07-01-2005, 10:57 AM

This is not to insult you, but judging by the content of your posts,you seem to play not to lose rather than to win. This will significantly hurt you in the longrun, particularly if you ever move up in limits. Poker is not a game where you can be set in your ways and expect to win; I'd work on improving rather than convincing other posters your ideas are correct.

Jeff

sfer

07-01-2005, 11:00 AM

The situation is profitable. Don't tell people that it's not. Tell them that you tilt and therefore will avoid profitable situations for those reasons.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 11:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not to insult you, but judging by the content of your posts,you seem to play not to lose rather than to win. This will significantly hurt you in the longrun, particularly if you ever move up in limits. Poker is not a game where you can be set in your ways and expect to win; I'd work on improving rather than convincing other posters your ideas are correct.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

My style and theory depends on the the type of table I am at and my opponents.

How many great poker players come on here and bitch and moan that they can't beat the fish at the 2/4, 3/6 B&M game?

If I get in at a table and it's fairly respectable bunch with only 1 or 2 Donks.. I'm obviously not going to play the same style as I would if there were 6 or 7 Donks.

Poker Players are pigheaded on their beliefs, Just like I am! I'm not afraid to admit it. I'm not trying to convince anyone that my "No Foldem Holdem" style is the best style/theory to beat the game.

But it's worked well for me, so what do you want me to do? I'm merely stating my opinion.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 11:14 AM

I'm not arguing with you that it isn't profitable.. I agree wholeheartedly.

But it's just my style to prefer low variance to high variance in these kind of games, and it works for me.

My strengths are my patience.. I found it to be better EV in my sessions (that I track) to go with my strengths and bury my weaknesses (Tilt vs Fish).

If I could learn how to control my Tilt, it would be definently be +EV to play out A-K in that situation.. But it's not.

I guess we all have our own theories on what works for them, and that's fine!

sfer

07-01-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How many great poker players come on here and bitch and moan that they can't beat the fish at the 2/4, 3/6 B&M game?

[/ QUOTE ]

Zero

sekrah

07-01-2005, 11:49 AM

Okay, people who think they are great then.

I can go back and pull 5 or 6 threads of people saying, "I win $500/month online at 3/6 online blah blah blah.. but these fish are all sucking out on me everywhere at Atlantic City 3/6... what do I do?!"

Nevermind, why do I even bother with a poker genius like you.. I'm one lucky bastard to constantly be successful crushing these games.. I can't even begin tell you how lucky I am to NEVER LOSE at 2/4 and 3/6 B&M games despite passing up these +EV opportunities.

I must be the luckiest SOB on the planet.

Do you have any tips for me so I can be good? I'd rather be a much greater poker player like you since you are so good at it..

Please, give me some tips will ya?!

sfer

07-01-2005, 12:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, people who think they are great then.

I can go back and pull 5 or 6 threads of people saying, "I win $500/month online at 3/6 online blah blah blah.. but these fish are all sucking out on me everywhere at Atlantic City 3/6... what do I do?!"

Nevermind, why do I even bother with a poker genius like you.. I'm one lucky bastard to constantly be successful crushing these games.. I can't even begin tell you how lucky I am to NEVER LOSE at 2/4 and 3/6 B&M games despite passing up these +EV opportunities.

I must be the luckiest SOB on the planet.

Do you have any tips for me so I can be good? I'd rather be a much greater poker player like you since you are so good at it..

Please, give me some tips will ya?!

[/ QUOTE ]

For a start, don't pass on +EV opportunities. Two, don't be such a dogmatic prick. Three, consider that many posters are in fact better than you and you might learn something from them. Four, if you don't like being corrected, don't post horrendous advice.

EDIT: Also, I never claimed I was a poker genius. I just happen to enjoy pointing out your mistakes. You can do the same for me, I make plenty. But folding AK in the scenario you describe is a mistake I will never make.

dabluebery

07-01-2005, 12:05 PM

If it were me in your spot, I'd play the $2/$4. Worrying about the rake at that game is the least of your problems.

The biggest problem for you is the variance, as others have said. You could play perfectly and get smoked at either the 2/4 or the 3/6, it's unavoidable with that many people in the pots.

Good luck.

morgant

07-01-2005, 12:21 PM

hahaha, you ok there little buddy?

i will be in cape may this friday to friday, i will be hitting up borgata a few nights. i will say hi. it will be grand.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 12:51 PM

You know what, I'm not even going to agree with you that it's a +EV situation.

It's only +EV if our BEST EXPECTATIONS of what these clowns are holding is true (All smaller pairs and draws). When you factor in the chances of them having two pair or a set, it's not -EV at all and it's a pure DONK to continue playing your TPTK JUNK that's nearly 7:1 to hold up against your best expectations against the pool of fish.

I guess the guy who averages almost 4-5/BB an hour against this group doesn't know what he's talking about though.

sfer

07-01-2005, 01:00 PM

sekrah

07-01-2005, 01:20 PM

The only thing that's +EV in that situation I posted is a fold.

And yes, I do profit 4-5 BB/hr at these games, and I wouldn't be making that much if I made lunatic calls like that when I'm a huge underdog.

I'm guessing that since you're so good and all, that you haven't been in a 3-6 game recently.

MisterKing

07-01-2005, 01:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know what, I'm not even going to agree with you that it's a +EV situation.

It's only +EV if our BEST EXPECTATIONS of what these clowns are holding is true (All smaller pairs and draws). When you factor in the chances of them having two pair or a set, it's not -EV at all and it's a pure DONK to continue playing your TPTK JUNK that's nearly 7:1 to hold up against your best expectations against the pool of fish.

I guess the guy who averages almost 4-5/BB an hour against this group doesn't know what he's talking about though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone calm. I see your argument, and you make some valud points. However you really should listen to sfer -- the guy knows his stuff, period. Passing on +EV bets for fear of variance is leaving massive sums of money on the table. You do not win 4+ BB/100 (much less per HOUR as you claim) by leaving massive sums of money on the table.

You suggest that you would tilt if you continued with AK in this spot and got donked. It's a very positive thing to be able to identify your own failings (one of mine is playing AK unimproved poorly) as you have. The wise Dr. Alan Schoonmaker has written quite a bit about it here (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue5/schoonmaker0505.html). It is quite another, however, to see your failing and compound it by manufacturing other failings to cope with the original problem. For example, being constantly lost is a problem, but murdering someone to get a map is not the solution. Equally so, tilting after losing with TPTK in a multiway pot like the one you've descrbed is a problem, but folding when you're +EV is also not the solution.

I used to think in a way similar to what you're saying: take the safe bets, the big edges, and just pass on the rest. The fish can't be beat at their own game (donking). I'm slowly getting out of that shell, and am making a lot more money as a result. Embrace the suckouts. Love them. Donk better than the next guy and you'll find yourself laying some ridiculous beats on the next guy -- he'll often offer you the odds to do just that.

Low-stakes hold'em isn't about constantly flopping the best hand and playing defense from there (though that is an important element of the game). Its about making good wagers every time. Betting for value pre-flop. Measuring outs and odds on the flop and controlling them to your advantage. Calling with trash when your trash has the odds to continue profitably. Honestly, it felt really strange when I started to call with bottom pair and a backdoor flush draw (when I had great odds), I felt like a total effing fish, but the money is there to be had if you can get yourself to do this.

As sfer said, dogmatic thinking doesn't get the money. Don't be like Bill Fillmaff. Embrace the suckout. BE the suckout. As my avatar says, suckout like a champ today.

sfer

07-01-2005, 01:47 PM

I've run very hot in live play in 2005--as all of my poker playing friends have noticed. Looking over my records I'm running at 2.7 BB/100. This includes two sessions where I lost the equivalent of your bankroll, both of which were witnessed by other 2+2ers. I'm better than you and I'm running very well and I know that's not sustainable. You don't make 4-5 BB/hr. Everyone who reads your post with any common sense can see that. You clearly don't have common sense so you restate it.

I played 4/8 two weeks ago in Las Vegas. I played 2/4 and 3/6 at Borgata in January for about an hour. I played 4/8 for several hours at Commerce in LA. I've played a ton of 4/8 in recently closed NYC clubs that were much looser than the 2/4 and 3/6 Borgata games. I've played 4/8 Stud at Commerce and 1-5 Stud at Borgata. I've played 0.5/1 through 20/40 on Party inclusive of all limits in the last 12 weeks. Suggesting that I don't understand these games is silly. You are really completely out of your element.

EDIT: Also, anyone with any thinking ability can see that you do in fact make lots of calls in loose games when you are an underdog.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 01:56 PM

The problem I have with saying A-K is +Ev with these low limit games, is that the pot is gets so big, that EVERYBODY has pot odds to call to make there hand.

The guy holding 7-10 is +EV to Call his open end straight draw!
The guy holding 6-7 is +EV to Call his open end straight draw
The guy holding two spades is +EV to Call his flush draw!

Hell, that pot is so damn big, Q-9 and J-8 are eyeing up their 5 outs or runner-runner straights and backdoor flushes and now they have correct odds to call 1 small blind!

I can't control that these half-a-dozen collection of donks made -EV calls pre-flop.. but now they are all +EV after the flop and I'm gunning them down with my 7:1 TPTK?

No!

When these -EV calls preflop with there Q-9o or J-7o and then the two guys after them decide to fold, and the flop comes, A-6-2 rainbow, or K-7-3 rainbow! Those are the flops that I make their -EV decisions PAY! or even bingo's like A-K-6, rainbow.. or A-A-8 rainbow.

When the flop comes raw, A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.. and there's 5-6 man action betting, raising, and calling all over the place.. I'm bailing, and I believe the fold is +EV!

The betting action and the read of your opponents dictates whether it's +EV!!

And sfer:.. and I do make 4-5/BB an hour in these games, despite what you think you know about me.

Grease

07-01-2005, 01:59 PM

6/12 is a joke.

Play it if you have the $$$.

It plays easier than any game I've ever played online (for the most part).

sfer

07-01-2005, 02:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And sfer:.. and I do make 4-5/BB an hour in these games, despite what you think you know about me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you're a cheap bastard.
I know you change your story to suit your needs.
I know you're weak tight.
I know that you play 2/4 & 3/6.
And I know you overstate your winrate.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 02:07 PM

Right.
Wrong.
Wrong.
Right (Although I'll play in NL Tournaments, and 1-2 NL).
Wrong.

BottlesOf

07-01-2005, 02:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Again.. Is it worth the risk of being put on tilt by the likely junk two pair I'm going to see on the river??

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is a real risk, you have a very significant leak in your game.

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm bailing, and I believe the fold is +EV!

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding always has an EV of zero.

[ QUOTE ]
And sfer:.. and I do make 4-5/BB an hour in these games, despite what you think you know about me.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, let's do this thing. How many hours? Let's get specific here, we can determine confidence intervals and stuff like that. (And by "we" I mean someone else who knows something about math.)

Also, a general theme I'm seeing in your rationale is that since everyone else is getting proper odds to call then you should "bail." In multiway pots several players can have proper odds to continue.

BottlesOf

07-01-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, a general theme I'm seeing in your rationale is that since everyone else is getting proper odds to call then you should "bail."

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea if you're thinking like this, you're making a lot of mistakes. The point is you may still be the favorite, (and if not that you have significant equity) and you are collecting enough bets in the pot that you are making some cents on every dollar going in the pot.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 02:28 PM

No, my rationale for folding is that I think I'm beat!! What's so difficult about that?, and I'll lose more money playing my A-K along!

Again, It's being bet and re-raised, and called down by several players.

My read/instincts are telling me that I'm beat! If I think the combined % chance of being beat (two pair) and being outdrawn by the many possible draws is much higher than the pot is offering me, It's +EV to call anyway?!

That just sounds insane to me!

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
!!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
?!

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm convinced.

dabluebery

07-01-2005, 02:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I have with saying A-K is +Ev with these low limit games, is that the pot is gets so big, that EVERYBODY has pot odds to call to make there hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a really bad way of looking at it. In the pots you're talking about, you have odds to continue, too. Even if you think AK is beat. Even if you have gotten killed by a junky two pair in this situation a million times. Yes, the pots are big and there will be some random suckouts from people with junky hands that make straights and flushes. Also, your hand can improve! How many $100 pots do you need to win at $2/$4 with an unimproved TPTK to make calling down profitable?

Read basically everything Ed Miller ever said about small stakes holdem. I think he's written about 100 articles here about not folding hands like this.

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 02:45 PM

Oh yeah I still want to know over how many hours (and at what limits) you've won "4-5 BB/hour."

Please note that I'm not doubting that you have won, on average, somewhere between four and five big bets (we're talking big bets, not big blinds, right?) playing small stakes games over some as-yet-undefined period of time.

I'm just saying that this hourly earn isn't sustainable long-term for someone who just isn't very good at poker.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 03:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just saying that this hourly earn isn't sustainable long-term for someone who just isn't very good at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's amazing when people are successful at something, everybody's else turns green with envy and says, "noo, can't be possible over the long-term" blah blah blah.

I do well at 1-2 NL and Low Limit B&M games. I rarely, if ever play on online because of the pokertracker crowd, and I'm not too interested in pissing away $60 on that device.. (I'm a Cheap Bastard sfer!!)..

Although I will occaisionally play in a multi tournament online. (usually $10-$20 Multi's on UB maybe once or twice a month).

I'm very good at beating limit games with large number of fish.. It's what I do best.. I can read these guys and put myself in the best situations to maximize profit.

I usually goto AC every other month (6 times a year, I'm 5+ hours away).. I'd go more often but there's other crap that I enjoy doing besides playing poker!

I've never come back with a loss, and I usually bring about $200-$400 more than I went with.. So far this year, in two trips, I finished up at my limit games $250 and $180. Last year I finished up $450, Around $300 twice, $250, $220, $200.

I usually play anywhere from 8-16 combined hours of limit when I make a trip there (depending on how long I stay, but I also like playing in a tournament if I can find one).. I play in both 2-4 and 3-6.. I like switching tables when I think a game has gotten too tight for my style and approach.

Is it so unbelievable that somebody can actually have success at these games without being bogged down in the 'old school' theory of poker?

Edge34

07-01-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Read basically everything Ed Miller ever said about small stakes holdem. I think he's written about 100 articles here about not folding hands like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

After reading this thread, I find it hard to believe that this guy would even trust a thing Ed has to say about the game.

And yes, that is all I have to contribute, other than saying that everything sfer has said is correct.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 03:13 PM

Why should I change when what I do is already working for me?!

dmk

07-01-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why should I change when what I do is already working for me?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets assume you aren't making any exagerations at all (which i'm sure isn't true). You played 7 sessions...lets say thats 100 hours...at 30 hands/hr, so you played at most 3000 hands? If you think thats a suitable sample size........

Of course, you probably do, considering the rest of your posts in this thread

Edge34

07-01-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why should I change when what I do is already working for me?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it is definitely incorrect strategy and will hurt in the long run. If you won't listen to sfer though, why would you listen to me?

There's a reason sfer plays higher than 1/2 and 2/4, and that's because he (and MANY others) have adjusted their strategies to profit long term.

BottlesOf

07-01-2005, 03:23 PM

Your results are menaingless. You play like 3-500 hands/month. What you've said in this thread about your approach to the game indicates you are not beating the game for the amount you think you are.

You will run bad at some point. You probably don't believe any of this now, but it will be interesting to hear you rationalize the inevitable dips. ALthough, you probably won't post about it. Your case is not unique.

TomBrooks

07-01-2005, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It takes a major adjustment of strategy to crush the fish. Position and discipline is critical..

I won't hesitate one second chucking away A-K with a A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif flop if there's 5-6 in the pot betting, raising, and calling after that flop in front of me. I won't call 2 SB's here..

[/ QUOTE ]
This is how I would figure this example, making a few assumptions to add some required specificity to the hand.

Hero has A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the cutoff.

2 early and 3 middle players limp, Hero Raises, the Button and Small Blind fold and the Big Blind calls. (12.5 SB, deducting 2SB for the rake).

Flop comes A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

The action goes check, bet, call, raise, call, fold. Hero is faced with calling 2 and the pot is 15.5 SB. If the early better and caller see the raise as they probably will, the pot will be 17.5 SB. Hero has TPTK and a BD flush draw. We could win this pot unimproved, but we figure we likely need at least two pair to win this pot and even that may not be enough. So I'd figure the three outs to two pair as 2 outs, the two outs to trips as 1.5 outs, and the BD flush as 1.5 outs. We have 5 outs and need 8:1. I will consider the implied odds wash out because there will be times we improve and win, but there will be times we improve and put in more bets but lose.

We are getting 8:1 here, so I suggest a call is correct.

Jeffage

07-01-2005, 03:29 PM

Ok, last word on this. So you don't think AK is plus EV in these spots b/c it gets easily cracked. The whole point of limit hold em is to force people to make fundamental mathmatical mistakes. This can be difficult bc the pots get so big. Many hands that are longshots will be getting odds to call one or even two bets on the flop. So use your position and skill to make people [censored] up. So say you have AK utg and raise. 5 people coldcall behind you and the BB calls. $30 pot at your game. Now the flop comes A-6-8, two spades. The BB bets. If you raise, you are playing incorrectly. If you fold you are playing incorrectly. The reason you dont raise is 79 or a 10-7 gutshot or bottom/mid pair are getting. And of course the draw. So you call. Make sure the turn comes clean and jack it. That way, if people coldcall the turn they might be making a mathematical mistake and if they fold, that's good too. Out of position, you might want to go for the checkraise even if there's a chance it will get checked through. This is because people will be getting correct odds to call one bet not two. Now, I'm speaking in generalities here. But...you must play your hand in a manner that allows people to err...then it will be plus EV. If you just play ABC or whatever, yes you will get beat and people wont be wrong to suck out. Think about it.

Jeff

bravos1

07-01-2005, 03:32 PM

Playing weak-tight CAN win you money against many fish. I doubt anyone here on this list will argue with that. I labled you as weak tight in the Paul Phillip's thread in MTT yesterday, and this post confirms it with no uncertainty. If you only play when you flop the absolute nuts, that's fine because you will still usually bring in a big pot or two because of all the fish still putting $$ into it. If that is how you play.. then fine. BUT, just realize that you are leaving tons of money on the table doing so.

So instead of coming back from a trip +200 everytime you go (which I doubt), you may have to come home like so.. -175, +600, +200, -150, +1200, even... etc.

It is obvious you can not handle the variance in the game so you fold many +EV hands out of fear. This in self helps define weak-tight players such as yourself. By the nature of a TAG player, a TAG can not be constantly worrying about the swings, as the know in the long run they will be +$$ by staying in these types of pots!

Mike Gallo

07-01-2005, 03:39 PM

Dave,

Also, anyone with any thinking ability can see that you do in fact make lots of calls in loose games when you are an underdog.

I can only sat that you rule !!! I believe in this old saying, you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him or her drink it.

The poster gave an example of one of the weakest tighest folds imaginable and now feels the need to justify it. Let it go Dave let it go.

On a side note..Dave r000lz /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 03:46 PM

OK, let's do this thing. Again.

[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing when people are successful at something, everybody's else turns green with envy and says, "noo, can't be possible over the long-term" blah blah blah.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really, really don't think most of the posters here are "green with envy" at how "successful you are."* I know I'm not.

[ QUOTE ]
I do well at 1-2 NL and Low Limit B&M games.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer to limit this "discussion" to limit games only since I don't play or know very much about no limit.
Also, let's make sure that we're not mixing in no limit results with our limit results.

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely, if ever play on online because of the pokertracker crowd, and I'm not too interested in pissing away $60 on that device.. (I'm a Cheap Bastard sfer!!)..

[/ QUOTE ]
For most of the posters here it's hardly "pissing away" $60, but whatever.

[ QUOTE ]
Although I will occaisionally play in a multi tournament online. (usually $10-$20 Multi's on UB maybe once or twice a month).

[/ QUOTE ]
OK.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm very good at beating limit games with large number of fish.. It's what I do best.. I can read these guys and put myself in the best situations to maximize profit.

[/ QUOTE ]
Based on what I have read from this thread alone I can conclue that you are, in fact, not "very good at beating limit games with large number of fish."

OK, let's get into meat and potatoes:

[ QUOTE ]
I usually goto AC every other month (6 times a year, I'm 5+ hours away).. I'd go more often but there's other crap that I enjoy doing besides playing poker!

I've never come back with a loss, and I usually bring about $200-$400 more than I went with.. So far this year, in two trips, I finished up at my limit games $250 and $180. Last year I finished up $450, Around $300 twice, $250, $220, $200.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK. To summarize, based on what you've said your last eight sessions your results have been:

+200
+220
+250
+300
+300
+450
+250
+180

So over eight session you're up $2150.

[ QUOTE ]
I usually play anywhere from 8-16 combined hours of limit when I make a trip there (depending on how long I stay, but I also like playing in a tournament if I can find one).. I play in both 2-4 and 3-6.. I like switching tables when I think a game has gotten too tight for my style and approach.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK. I'll average this out to 12 hours per session for 96 hours total, at an average limit of $2.50/5.00.

This means that you've won $2150 in 96 hours, or around $22.40 per hour. Using the admittedly rough assumptions I've given above this comes out to 4.48 big bets per hour.

For simplicity (and to make things easy for me) let's say that on average you get dealt 33.3 hands per hour, which should be about right for a small stakes B&M game with competent dealers.

This means that you've won $2150, or 430 big bets, in approximately 3197 hands. This works out to having run at about 13.45 big bets/100 hands during the sessions you've mentioned.

Again, please note that I don't have any reason to doubt any of this. Only you really know if you have reported these results accurately or not, and I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have.

Anyway, the main point is that you are assuming that your short-term results are somehow indicative that you are playing this game well. 3200 hands or so is such a miniscule sample that it's silly to try to figure out how good of a player you are based on it.

Maybe you're actually running poorly and should expect to win 20 big bets per hour in this game. Maybe you should expect to be a marginal winner, or a breakeven player, or a slightly losing player, and have run pretty hot. Or maybe you're not even a winning player and have run significantly better than would be expected.

It really doesn't do much good to try to figure out what kind of player you are based on the very, very small sample size that you provided. Instead, implicitly most of us have focused on your thought process and analytical skills. Personally, I've found some serious holes in your poker thinking based on what I've read in this thread, but I could be wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it so unbelievable that somebody can actually have success at these games without being bogged down in the 'old school' theory of poker?

[/ QUOTE ]
In the long-term, yes.

[ QUOTE ]
Why should I change when what I do is already working for me?!

[/ QUOTE ]
Because in poker how well you play is only one of many things that affects your results in the short-term. Since it's the only thing you can control, you should concentrate on trying to play well.

[/ QUOTE ]
*Yes, I'm putting these things in quotation marks to make fun of you.

Mike Gallo

07-01-2005, 03:52 PM

Brad,

Ever think about becoming a lawyer? Excellent post.

Mike Gallo

07-01-2005, 03:55 PM

I won't hesitate one second chucking away A-K with a A 8 9 flop if there's 5-6 in the pot betting, raising, and calling after that flop in front of me. I won't call 2 SB's here.. I already know that I'm up against two spades, 6-7, 7-10, 6-9, J-8 and Q-9.. Leaving me pretty much 2,3,4 minus the spades, plus 2 (ace and king, non spade), 8 cards that must come up in the final two cards for me to win.

Recipe for disaster.

sfer

07-01-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why should I change when what I do is already working for me?!

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said you should change. Everyone is only stating that you are fundamentally wrong about poker. How you play is your business, but when you try to give weak tight advice here, you'll get called out. Like I implied before, I'm sure many regular posters playing 2/4 and 3/6 in AC would love to sit to your right.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 04:10 PM

When is it incorrect to fold?

What if the guy raising in front of me after the flop is ULTRA tight.. he's played 3 hands past the flop in the past 2 hours and took down all 3 pots after flopping huge flops (two-pair, or sets)

Is there NEVER a situation you fold A-K? Is it ALWAYS +EV when you flop TPTK ??

This is the important question here, and it seems like the answer is always Yes?!

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 04:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]

When is it incorrect to fold?

What if the guy raising in front of me after the flop is ULTRA tight.. he's played 3 hands past the flop in the past 2 hours and took down all 3 pots after flopping huge flops (two-pair, or sets)

Is there NEVER a situation you fold A-K? Is it ALWAYS +EV when you flop TPTK ??

This is the important question here, and it seems like the answer is always Yes?!

[/ QUOTE ]
It depends.
It depends.
It depends.
It depends.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 04:17 PM

It depends..

That's the point I've been trying to make!

In your opinion.. When would you fold A-K with that flop?

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is how I would figure this example, making a few assumptions to add some required specificity to the hand.

Hero has A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif in the cutoff.

2 early and 3 middle players limp, Hero Raises, the Button and Small Blind fold and the Big Blind calls. (12.5 SB, deducting 2SB for the rake).

Flop comes A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.

The action goes check, bet, call, raise, call, fold. Hero is faced with calling 2 and the pot is 15.5 SB. If the early better and caller see the raise as they probably will, the pot will be 17.5 SB. Hero has TPTK and a BD flush draw. We could win this pot unimproved, but we figure we likely need at least two pair to win this pot and even that may not be enough. So I'd figure the three outs to two pair as 2 outs, the two outs to trips as 1.5 outs, and the BD flush as 1.5 outs. We have 5 outs and need 8:1. I will consider the implied odds wash out because there will be times we improve and win, but there will be times we improve and put in more bets but lose.

We are getting 8:1 here, so I suggest a call is correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent analysis. I like this kind of thinking much better than:

[ QUOTE ]
I won't hesitate one second chucking away A-K with a A /images/graemlins/heart.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif flop if there's 5-6 in the pot betting, raising, and calling after that flop in front of me. I won't call 2 SB's here..

[/ QUOTE ]

Edge34

07-01-2005, 04:20 PM

sekrah

07-01-2005, 04:24 PM

Okay, say it's stil that huge pot.. BUt there's two ultra tights betting and raising in front of me..

Do I lay down AK?

I'm not trying to smarmy or anything, but when I "read" that I'm beaten, I get blasted for throwing it away!

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 04:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It depends..

That's the point I've been trying to make!

In your opinion.. When would you fold A-K with that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
When I think that I couldn't call or raise profitably.

I think it would be useful for you to concentrate on the points I made about sample-size, expected earnings, and results, as well as TomBrooks excellent analysis of your made up hand.

However, if you really want me to come up with a situation where I'd dump AK when the flop comes AXY I can.

sekrah

07-01-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends..

That's the point I've been trying to make!

In your opinion.. When would you fold A-K with that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
When I think that I couldn't call or raise profitably.

I think it would be useful for you to concentrate on the points I made about sample-size, expected earnings, and results, as well as TomBrooks excellent analysis of your made up hand.

However, if you really want me to come up with a situation where I'd dump AK when the flop comes AXY I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I'm serious.. I want to know what situation(s) you would dump A-K after flopping TPTK.

CCx

07-01-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll be up at Borgata 7/6 thru 7/9

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be there on the 9th as well...

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool man, I still owe you from earlier this year when you were kind enough to put me on the list while I was driving up on I-95. I presume the 6/12 is still your main game at Borgata?

[/ QUOTE ]

haha cool, you can buy me a free beer /images/graemlins/grin.gif yah, i havent been down there in weeks (well i guess you could say 2 months, but technically thats weeks too) so yea i'll be sitting 6/12, if i run goot im hitting the 10/20 game - playing either the trop or taj tourney in the AM then heading over to the borg for the rest of the day/night, maybe i can get YOU to put ME on the list this time /images/graemlins/grin.gif

would like to meet up with any other 2+2ers there i havent met or havent seen in a while, prolly make another post next week about it, yaaaaaah /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, say it's stil that huge pot.. BUt there's two ultra tights betting and raising in front of me..

Do I lay down AK?

I'm not trying to smarmy or anything, but when I "read" that I'm beaten, I get blasted for throwing it away!

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is saying that there isn't a good chance you're not ahead here. But what you should be thinking about, among other things, is:

How big is the pot? What odds am I being offered to call? What odds do I present those behind me if I call? If I raise?

Is the pot big enough that I should call based on the fact that I might be ahead, and if I'm not that I have X outs to improve to a winning hand, based on the ranges of hands my opponents would play they way they've played this hand?

Poker's pretty non-intuitive a lot (most?) of the time. There are plenty of times when you could be relatively sure that you are losing at the moment (even with a made hand) yet should raise anyway.

sfer

07-01-2005, 04:32 PM

Edge34

07-01-2005, 04:33 PM

I'll have to give you the popular answer in this thread, I guess...

It depends.

You weren't getting blasted for throwing away a hand, you were getting "blasted" for some flaws in your thinking that led you to an improper fold many times. In this case, you'd have to think about a range of hands that your two "ultra-tight" opponents may have, and what odds the pot is laying you. In your original posts you were playing scared, trying to avoid the "inevitable" beat, and you didn't give yourself a chance to win a pot with a hand that can very well be ahead and hold up.

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 04:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends..

That's the point I've been trying to make!

In your opinion.. When would you fold A-K with that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
When I think that I couldn't call or raise profitably.

I think it would be useful for you to concentrate on the points I made about sample-size, expected earnings, and results, as well as TomBrooks excellent analysis of your made up hand.

However, if you really want me to come up with a situation where I'd dump AK when the flop comes AXY I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I'm serious.. I want to know what situation(s) you would dump A-K after flopping TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, there are plenty of scenarious in which this would happen. It's relatively rare, but it happens.

3 limpers to me and I get frisky and raise with A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif in middle position. The blinds come along for the ride, everyone calls. 6 to the flop for 12 SBs.

Flop comes A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Small blind, who is insanely weak-tight, bets out. Big blind, who is even more weak-tight, raises. Early position, who is more weak tight than any of them, reraises. Next 2 players fold. I'm getting an immediate 18:3 to call here but am likely drawing very, very slim here so I fold.

OK, can we move on and talk about some of the other stuff I brought up?

OrangeKing

07-01-2005, 04:48 PM

Something actually related to the original post:

I'm heading out to Vegas for a week. Let's say I'll have $1,000 for poker playing. This is not going to effect my overall poker bankroll (by which I mean my online one) at all; I'll still have plenty of money to play with even if I lose every cent.

Any suggestions on what I should play there? I generally play up to 2/4 online, and also have some experience playing live low-buyin NL games.

bdk3clash

07-01-2005, 05:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Something actually related to the original post:

I'm heading out to Vegas for a week. Let's say I'll have $1,000 for poker playing. This is not going to effect my overall poker bankroll (by which I mean my online one) at all; I'll still have plenty of money to play with even if I lose every cent.

Any suggestions on what I should play there? I generally play up to 2/4 online, and also have some experience playing live low-buyin NL games.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're literally indifferent about potentially losing the $1000 then I'd say you could play as high as $10/20 if you're willing to move down if things go south (say, losing $500.)

Realisistically anything up to about $6/12 should be fine. Feel free to move up or down as you feel like it depending on your comfort level and game conditions. From my experience $10/20 games in Vegas can veer towards weak-tight, particularly during the week, but are still very good. Anything below that will be gravy.

OrangeKing

07-01-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Something actually related to the original post:

I'm heading out to Vegas for a week. Let's say I'll have $1,000 for poker playing. This is not going to effect my overall poker bankroll (by which I mean my online one) at all; I'll still have plenty of money to play with even if I lose every cent.

Any suggestions on what I should play there? I generally play up to 2/4 online, and also have some experience playing live low-buyin NL games.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're literally indifferent about potentially losing the $1000 then I'd say you could play as high as $10/20 if you're willing to move down if things go south (say, losing $500.)

Realisistically anything up to about $6/12 should be fine. Feel free to move up or down as you feel like it depending on your comfort level and game conditions. From my experience $10/20 games in Vegas can veer towards weak-tight, particularly during the week, but are still very good. Anything below that will be gravy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was thinking that $10/$20 might be a bit too high for me to feel comfortable - but depending on how the first 5 days of the trip go, I might sit at a game that size in our last full day there. For the most part, I guess I'll stick to the $4/$8 to $6/$12 range. Thanks for the info.

MisterKing

07-02-2005, 02:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Something actually related to the original post:

I'm heading out to Vegas for a week. Let's say I'll have $1,000 for poker playing. This is not going to effect my overall poker bankroll (by which I mean my online one) at all; I'll still have plenty of money to play with even if I lose every cent.

Any suggestions on what I should play there? I generally play up to 2/4 online, and also have some experience playing live low-buyin NL games.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bring more than $1K if you can, and sit 6/12. The games are gooooooooooooooooooot, Mirage in particular. If you can't bring more than $1K, you may want to start at the 6 game anyhow and drop down in limits if you lose initially. Thing is, if your overall BR is much higher than $1K, why NOT bring more of it to give yourself more operating room? Conceptually a consistently winning 2/4 full ring player on Party could dominate many of the 10/20 games spread in Vegas -- though the "it depends" theory does apply here. 6/12 you'd be a favorite for sure.

1-2NL at MGM with a $200 capped buy in is good, as is the 1-2 at Aladdin. You'll often find 4-8 with either half or full kill at MGM as well.

MisterKing

07-02-2005, 02:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
It depends..

That's the point I've been trying to make!

In your opinion.. When would you fold A-K with that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey man, you've been taken out to the woodshed by the who's who of the 2+2 small stakes forum, and they were right to do it. Hope you've learned a few things and will improve your game as a result... we all learn in different ways, and maybe this will be an unorthodox "I got my ass kicked, but learned a lesson" experience. Read that Dr. Alan Schoonmaker article I posted before -- it doesnt have much poker content, but I still learned a TON from it.

Your specific question of "when do I fold TPTK in a big multiway pot" reveals to me again a troublesome fundamental thought process on your part. Truly winning SSH players, who have won consistently over a sample 30 to 3000 times the size of your sample, don't ask "when do I fold" nearly as often as they say to themselves "I'm better than these guys, is there any way I can PLAY this hand I've got in front of me." Search for the "taking off the training wheels" post by Ed Miller... its a gem, and it outlines the idea that once you've got the fundamentals down, you need to constantly adjust to game situations, sometimes donking heavily if the game is right to do so. Point is, the truly great players are DYING to get in a hand with weaker opponents, and while they won't distort the math to do so, they do try to find conditions that enable them to do so. They do NOT start the thought process by asking "gee, how can I justify a fold here." There's a world of difference, and profit, between the two mindsets.

sekrah

07-02-2005, 07:58 AM

I've been taken the woodshed??

I have news for you.. A group of idiots who speak in one voice, doesn't make their voice correct.

I'm not saying what they say is wrong, or what they are saying is right.

All I know, is that I make TONS of money with very moderate variance playing this style in this game.

Could I be making more if I started playing "Their Way", Maybe, maybe not.. But most likely not, when I lose the first 5 times in that A-K situation, I'll start wobbling from my game and t*lt.

Whatever guys, you do it your way, and I'll do it my way.. It's worked GREAT for me!

sfer

07-02-2005, 11:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
All I know, is that I make TONS of money with very moderate variance playing this style in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate making a statement like I'm about to for a variety of reasons, but I'll do it anyway. You have no idea what "TONS of money" is.

sekrah

07-02-2005, 12:06 PM

sfer.. blah blah blah... I'll take 4.5/BB an hour all day long.

Keep making and advocating clown loose calls as you wish, I don't care.. I'll just keep stacking the chips.

Bremen

07-02-2005, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You have no idea what "TONS of money" is.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe he's converting his winnings to pennies?

scrub

07-02-2005, 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All I know, is that I make TONS of money with very moderate variance playing this style in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate making a statement like I'm about to for a variety of reasons, but I'll do it anyway. You have no idea what "TONS of money" is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but people who actually play poker well don't either.

Bastard.

scrub

sfer

07-02-2005, 12:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sfer.. blah blah blah... I'll take 4.5/BB an hour all day long.

Keep making and advocating clown loose calls as you wish, I don't care.. I'll just keep stacking the $1 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

Edge34

07-02-2005, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sfer.. blah blah blah... I'll take 4.5/BB an hour all day long.

Keep making and advocating clown loose calls as you wish, I don't care.. I'll just keep stacking the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're nothing but a punk.

You tilt far too easily.

You're not ready for poker in any serious manner.

You deserve to lose, and if you're not willing to listen to advice (the main purpose of these forums) then you really should just go away.

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sfer.. blah blah blah... I'll take 4.5/BB an hour all day long.

Keep making and advocating clown loose calls as you wish, I don't care.. I'll just keep stacking the chips.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you deliberately not responding to my posts? I think I raised some points that you would be well served to at least think about.

You know those investment commercials where they say "Past performance is not indicative of future results"? In poker it's especially true, since you're really only in partial control of your results over a small sample size like 3000 hands or so. That's pretty much all we're trying to say.

You seem very fixated--and proud--of being a "4.5/BB an hour" winner in the games you play. I'm not sure why you're choosing to ignore the fact that based on the evidence that you provided it's impossible to say what your expected earn (in other words, what you should expect to make per hour from now on) in the games you're playing is. This isn't my opinion based on the advice you've given on how to play AK or anything like that. It's just math.

Again, no one is saying that you haven't achieved the results you claim, just that they don't matter very much, and they don't give you the right to say you can reasonably expect to continue to win 4.5 big bets per hour.

I guess I'm done with this thread unless you start responding to the points I've made about "win rate" claims and sample size issues, or unless you insult me or someone I respect. ("A group of idiots who speak in one voice, doesn't make their voice correct.") The smart money says I'll be back.

The real issue is why I (and others) find threads like this endlessly fascinating. I guess those of us that take poker seriously and respect it are interested in the psychology behind the various irrationalities and rationalizations we find at the tables. All I can say is that if you continue to play you're going to have a very, very hard time unlearning some of the bad habits you've internalized.

Poker is hard enough to learn if one is open-minded and willing to put aside one's ego. For you, I suspect it's all but impossible.

bravos1

07-02-2005, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Could I be making more if I started playing "Their Way", Maybe, maybe not.. But most likely not, when I lose the first 5 times in that A-K situation, I'll start wobbling from my game and t*lt.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is the part of your game that really makes people scratch their heads. You need to take care of your own poker psychology. If you get AA creacked by runner-runner twice early in a session and it sends you tilting, then you should not be playing (or at least only stick with the .01/.05 online games where you can play correctly, variance included, while not tilting). Your game right now is SO results oriented, and the money is a key factor with you. This is preventing you from even seeing your mistakes. Poker is what it is.. your gonna take some bad beats, and give some out, but all-in-all, over the long run the chips will fall to the better percentage play. You need to be able to control your emotions before playing correctly (ie optimally). Everyone in this forum is just stating that in order for you to maximize your play, and your profits, you need to fix this weak-tight play exhibited here so far. This is even more true, talking about ring games. I feel that people here are honestly trying to help you improve your game.

mostsmooth

07-02-2005, 02:28 PM

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/toggleignore.php?Cat=&User=38872&Board=cardroom&Nu mber=2775756&what=showflat&page=0&view=collapsed&s b=5&o=14)

sekrah

07-02-2005, 04:49 PM

No, what i see is a bunch of people rambling a bunch of garbage and crap, and you don't know anymore than the next guy.

Everybody's a freaking genius on here, and according to you clowns there's only one possible way to play poker, any everything else is absolutely wrong.

Save your advice and criticism.

This entire pissing match started because somebody went "Ohhh nooo you're doing it wrong."

Next time you THINK someone is doing it wrong, just keep your mouth shut, especially as I am stacking your chips.

sekrah

07-02-2005, 04:50 PM

Pick ANY thread in any of the advice forums for tournament, low limit, mid limit, or high limit holdem!

You'll find a dozen different people saying that there way is the best way.

smb394

07-02-2005, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Pick ANY thread in any of the advice forums for tournament, low limit, mid limit, or high limit holdem!

You'll find a dozen different people saying that their way is the best way.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

nervous

07-02-2005, 05:06 PM

Stop bragging about how you "crush" the 2/4 and 3/6 live limits. Do you really think that that is a high standard when you are bragging to people who regularly beat limits up to 30/60 and win pots that are bigger than your entire bankroll?

Judging by what you say, it is clear that what others have said (that you are extremely weak-tight) is correct. Yes, this causes for low variance play, but it does not cause for large wins like you say you have.

You are probably one of those people that don't raise AK preflop either because it "isn't a made hand until it hits a pair." Please.

FWIW, I crushed the 5/10 game last night for 14BB/100 /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

me > you

sfer

07-02-2005, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends..

That's the point I've been trying to make!

In your opinion.. When would you fold A-K with that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
When I think that I couldn't call or raise profitably.

I think it would be useful for you to concentrate on the points I made about sample-size, expected earnings, and results, as well as TomBrooks excellent analysis of your made up hand.

However, if you really want me to come up with a situation where I'd dump AK when the flop comes AXY I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I'm serious.. I want to know what situation(s) you would dump A-K after flopping TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where should I have folded?

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (28 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (17 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 27 BB

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, what i see is a bunch of people rambling a bunch of garbage and crap

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you be specific? The "Quote" function would allow you to respond point-by-point to anything you feel is "rambling" or "a bunch of garbage and crap." I am not being pedantic or anything, I really do want to hear your thoughts, as I find them interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
and you don't know anymore than the next guy.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm really not I trying to argue from authority or from a take-my-word-for-it standpoint. However, I do think I happen to know a lot more than the next guy--certainly if the next guy is your average poker player and even if he is a typical 2+2 small stakes poster/player.

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody's a freaking genius on here, and according to you clowns there's only one possible way to play poker, any everything else is absolutely wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is absolutely untrue. I'm sure there are a few bona fide genii on this forum, but for the most part we're just a bunch of people who are interested in improving our poker skills.

We constantly argue, debate, and disagree all the time. But we remain open to new ideas and new ways to analyze and play certain situations. Of course, we tend to develop shortcuts in our thinking so that we don't have to analyze everything from scratch on the fly. ("Tend to raise and reraise with AK preflop/Tend to raise and reraise with the nuts on the river/etc.")

The analytical process itself is much more important than the conclusion to a specific point of contention. A response that simply stated something like "You should raise/call/fold in that spot" doesn't really leave much room for anyone to learn anything. You say fold, someone else says call, and in the end you kind of just agree to disagree (or disagree to disagree.)

But if someone gives a reason for why they advocate doing something, at least then we can get the ball rolling. You've done this in a few of your responses, and others have disagreed with the assumptions and conclusions you've made.

Then you have reverted to a tried-and-true canard that just doesn't fly here: "Well, it works for me, because I am a 4.5 BB/hour winner." If you were, in fact, a proven long-term winner with this kind of expected earn people would still question your logic and point out that you have achieved that hourly expectation in spite of your play in hands like the one you've mentioned, not because of it. The fact that it isn't reasonable to conclude that you are in fact a 4.5 BB/hour winner based solely on the numbers that you provided doesn't reflect on your poker skills per se, but the fact that you haven't even acknowledged this (or any of the points I've made about your "winrate" and sample size) doesn't make your case any more convincing.

We've all been there, we've all seen that, and you either move beyond this attitude or don't improve at all.

[ QUOTE ]
Save your advice and criticism. This entire pissing match started because somebody went "Ohhh nooo you're doing it wrong."

[/ QUOTE ]
Untrue. It started because you were doing it wrong, and then continued to insist you were doing it (playing poker) right despite loads of evidence to the contrary.

[ QUOTE ]
Next time you THINK someone is doing it wrong, just keep your mouth shut, especially as I am stacking your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]
For a variety of reasons, this is unlikely to happen. I'll let others elaborate, but I'll give you a hint: It isn't because I think that if we sat at the table you'd never win a pot I was involved in.

sekrah

07-02-2005, 05:22 PM

They checked to you on the flop you idgit.

Your situation is NOWHERE CLOSE to the situation that I described..

Try again geek.

sfer

07-02-2005, 05:26 PM

I was bet into with the 3rd flush card on the turn. Learn to read.

sekrah

07-02-2005, 05:27 PM

When SB bets, BB calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls two, thats where you will be -EV ALL DAY, despite your ignorance!

That situation was nothing compared to the one where I said I would fold it.

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, [weak-tight play] causes for low variance play, but it does not cause for large wins like you say you have.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've discusses this a bunch with SFer and the general conclusion I've come to is that this isn't true. The game itself is high-variance, and modifications players make to "reduce variance" (generally tighter, less aggressive play) are usually just justifications playesr for folding when they should call or raise and calling when they should raise. More importantly, these "variance-reducing" strategies probably have a negligible effect on variance.

(Large wins like the ones sekrah reports are likely more a function of running pretty well over a relatively short sample size.)

[ QUOTE ]
me > you

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

sekrah

07-02-2005, 05:29 PM

I think you are the one that needs to learn to read..

Go back and read my post and the situation I would fold A-K in.

You show me where I said to fold A-K on the turn after everybody is showing weakness on the flop.

You have NO, F*CKING, IDEA, as to what the hell you are talking about.

sfer

07-02-2005, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

When SB bets, BB calls, UTG raises, UTG+1 calls two, thats where you will be -EV ALL DAY, despite your ignorance!

That situation was nothing compared to the one where I said I would fold it.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not responding to my hand directly so I'll do it myself. It's not hard, but it's over your head. My thought process was that the pot was almost 20 BBs and I have to protect my hand from single clubs drawing cheaply on the turn, so I raised. And if I get 3-bet, then I would play poker. This is something you will never consider doing because you only think in terms of "I am beaten/I am ahead," and thus you will be an easy player to exploit. If I could be bothered with bets in $6 increments I would be happy to do it myself. Instead, others here reading this thread will do it, and that makes me happy.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $15.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (28 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (17 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, Button folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 27 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Jc Js (two pair, jacks and threes).
Hero has Ad Kd (two pair, kings and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 27 BB. 

Since you constantly bring up money, I'll just point out that I won an $810 pot with TPTK on a paired board with a flush possible that was 7 ways on the flop. How many weak-tight weekends in AC is that for you?

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 05:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You have NO, F*CKING, IDEA, as to what the hell you are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
Finally, something we agree on--SFer sucking. God only knows how he built up a bankroll to play $40/80 and higher from scratch, starting at $0.50/$1.00. He's clearly just gotten lucky over his last few hundred thousand hands. I mean, how could anyone who advocates playing TPTK so aggressively be a winner? It boggles the mind.

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How many weak-tight weekends in AC is that for you?

[/ QUOTE ]
About four, minus gas, tolls, and (maybe) tips.

sekrah

07-02-2005, 05:38 PM

sfer..

This is where you are dumb, ignorant, and WRONG in assuming what kind of player I am and how I play!

I would have played the hand EXACTLY how you did.. I don't think I would have done a SINGLE THING different!

You find an example to try to bury me, but I would have played it the exact same way as you! It's NOWHERE CLOSE to the scenario that I painted when I would fold that hand!

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 05:41 PM

Here's a street you would have played differently:

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em

[/ QUOTE ]
Also, I bet you wouldn't have raised the turn, but I could be wrong. The point isn't really that you would have played the hand the same (I don't really think any streets are particularly interesting), but the thought process behind the decisions.

Also, I would like to point out that SFer totally stole the "then play poker" riff from me, and I stole it from turnipmonster, and he stole it from Matt Flynn.

sekrah

07-02-2005, 05:44 PM

Yes, I don't play those high limits..

But Yes.. I wouldn't have hesistated at ALL to raise the turn!

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, I don't play those high limits..

But Yes.. I wouldn't have hesistated at ALL to raise the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]
You're obviously reading all the posts in this thread--why haven't you responded to any of the points I've made about analytical processes, variance, humility, and "win rates" and sample size issues?

IndieMatty

07-02-2005, 06:04 PM

smb394

07-02-2005, 06:05 PM

*** You are ignoring this user ***

Sekrah, stop being a douche.

IndieMatty

07-02-2005, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]

They checked to you on the flop you idgit.

Your situation is NOWHERE CLOSE to the situation that I described..

Try again geek

[/ QUOTE ]

only thing correct you have said in the entire thread.

OrangeKing

07-02-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Something actually related to the original post:

I'm heading out to Vegas for a week. Let's say I'll have $1,000 for poker playing. This is not going to effect my overall poker bankroll (by which I mean my online one) at all; I'll still have plenty of money to play with even if I lose every cent.

Any suggestions on what I should play there? I generally play up to 2/4 online, and also have some experience playing live low-buyin NL games.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're literally indifferent about potentially losing the $1000 then I'd say you could play as high as $10/20 if you're willing to move down if things go south (say, losing $500.)

Realisistically anything up to about $6/12 should be fine. Feel free to move up or down as you feel like it depending on your comfort level and game conditions. From my experience $10/20 games in Vegas can veer towards weak-tight, particularly during the week, but are still very good. Anything below that will be gravy.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is more weak tight advice.

play craps.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want me to play craps and say someone else is weak-tight? If I venture out of the cardroom, I think I should LAG it up at the roulette table.

Not really, my friends like BJ and I'm cool with the minimally -EV situation it presents in exchange for having fun with them.

IndieMatty

07-02-2005, 07:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Something actually related to the original post:

I'm heading out to Vegas for a week. Let's say I'll have $1,000 for poker playing. This is not going to effect my overall poker bankroll (by which I mean my online one) at all; I'll still have plenty of money to play with even if I lose every cent.

Any suggestions on what I should play there? I generally play up to 2/4 online, and also have some experience playing live low-buyin NL games.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're literally indifferent about potentially losing the $1000 then I'd say you could play as high as $10/20 if you're willing to move down if things go south (say, losing $500.)

Realisistically anything up to about $6/12 should be fine. Feel free to move up or down as you feel like it depending on your comfort level and game conditions. From my experience $10/20 games in Vegas can veer towards weak-tight, particularly during the week, but are still very good. Anything below that will be gravy.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is more weak tight advice.

play craps.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want me to play craps and say someone else is weak-tight? If I venture out of the cardroom, I think I should LAG it up at the roulette table.

Not really, my friends like BJ and I'm cool with the minimally -EV situation it presents in exchange for having fun with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

sigh

OrangeKing

07-02-2005, 07:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sigh

[/ QUOTE ]

Sigh... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

BottlesOf

07-02-2005, 07:41 PM

Why do you think your results in the 3,000 hands you've played are meaningful? Why do you think that your winning $1,000 or $2,000 or whatever piddling amount impressess anyone? Why won't you respond to bdk3clash's serious questions? Why are you such a clown? Why is this the best thread on 2+2 in forever?

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 08:09 PM

Part of me thinks sekrah might be a troll, albeit a very convincing one at that.

(EDIT: "albeit" instead of "but" more clearly expresses what I'm trying to say.)

BottlesOf

07-02-2005, 08:14 PM

Define troll.

MisterKing

07-02-2005, 08:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why is this the best thread on 2+2 in forever?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because we may have tilted sekrah a full week in advance of his visit to the card room?

MisterKing

07-02-2005, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Define troll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ed Miller, in disguise, testing his students? On second thought... nah. But it'd be funny.

bdk3clash

07-02-2005, 08:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Define troll.

[/ QUOTE ]
Like CinnamondWind, only not as good at poker.

MisterKing

07-02-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll be up at Borgata 7/6 thru 7/9

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be there on the 9th as well...

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool man, I still owe you from earlier this year when you were kind enough to put me on the list while I was driving up on I-95. I presume the 6/12 is still your main game at Borgata?

[/ QUOTE ]

haha cool, you can buy me a free beer /images/graemlins/grin.gif yah, i havent been down there in weeks (well i guess you could say 2 months, but technically thats weeks too) so yea i'll be sitting 6/12, if i run goot im hitting the 10/20 game - playing either the trop or taj tourney in the AM then heading over to the borg for the rest of the day/night, maybe i can get YOU to put ME on the list this time /images/graemlins/grin.gif

would like to meet up with any other 2+2ers there i havent met or havent seen in a while, prolly make another post next week about it, yaaaaaah /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, we need to get meetup info into a separate post, since this one has been pretty well hijacked... Since I'm up there before you, CCx, I'm happy to return the favor and get you on the list while you're driving over on Fri. PM me if you want my cell and I'll take care of it.

Perhaps we can convince the guys at the Showboat/HOB to spread a HORSE table for us some time on Friday afternoon or Saturday noon-ish?

sekrah

07-02-2005, 09:09 PM

Yea.. When you are sitting down at a 3/6 game and see some guy shaking his head as the donks 3-bet the K-9-10 flop, you can say hello.

sfer

07-02-2005, 11:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Yes, I don't play those high limits..

But Yes.. I wouldn't have hesistated at ALL to raise the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullshit. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2752023&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

bravos1

07-03-2005, 12:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yes, I don't play those high limits..

But Yes.. I wouldn't have hesistated at ALL to raise the turn!

[/ QUOTE ]

Bullshit. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2752023&page=&view=&s b=5&o=&vc=1)

[/ QUOTE ]
Agree 100%!

First of all, you would have most definately NOT 3-bet preflop, but just called instead.

2nd, you would have folded the turn bet according to your previous logic. After all, this pot IS 7-handed and you know at least 1-2 people had hole clubs(your earlier reasoning for folding in the OP). If you did muster up a sack and decided to stay in the hand, NO WAY to you bet after the flush card hits the turn. I'd guess you'd also fold after the river paired the bored to because you can say for certain that someone has played A3 or K3.. heck, maybe they just hit quads and were slow playing it greatly!

BTW.. "Great Laydown" I had 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif and you saved yourself from tilting as well as a BB or 2.

sekrah

07-03-2005, 08:32 AM

People do not get DUMBER THAN YOU!!

Again.. a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT HAND, with COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BETTING ACTION, yet you think you are some hero by digging it up.

You are now nominated for DUMBEST DONK ON EARTH 2005!

sfer

07-03-2005, 11:37 AM

My hand is tougher. I'm getting bet into on a big bet street on a scary card that makes possible several dozen hands to which I'm drawing to 2 outs, not closing the action, with several players behind me, one of whom, given the preflop action, could have the other AK or AA. The turn in the other hand is trivial, closing the action getting 10 to 1 with some chance of drawing dead.

Do you even understand what "closing the action" means? Do you count the size of the pot? Have you ever played a game where the rake doesn't max out at less than the SB?

How about this, I'll put up $500, giving you 5 to 1, that in sessions totaling more than 100 hours (with witnesses that you and I agree to beforehand) that you will not earn more than 4 BB/hr. Or $100, or with whatever smaller amount you're comfortable. I'll even let you count the pots you tip and add back the $10 or you tip over that time.

scrub

07-03-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Have you ever played a game where the rake doesn't max out at less than the SB?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say those are the only games he's played in.

scrub

IndieMatty

07-03-2005, 02:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My hand is tougher. I'm getting bet into on a big bet street on a scary card that makes possible several dozen hands to which I'm drawing to 2 outs, not closing the action, with several players behind me, one of whom, given the preflop action, could have the other AK or AA. The turn in the other hand is trivial, closing the action getting 10 to 1 with some chance of drawing dead.

Do you even understand what "closing the action" means? Do you count the size of the pot? Have you ever played a game where the rake doesn't max out at less than the SB?

How about this, I'll put up $500, giving you 5 to 1, that in sessions totaling more than 100 hours (with witnesses that you and I agree to beforehand) that you will not earn more than 4 BB/hr. Or $100, or with whatever smaller amount you're comfortable. I'll even let you count the pots you tip and add back the $10 or you tip over that time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do 2+2 .50/1.00 tables count?

BigBaitsim (milo)

07-03-2005, 02:36 PM

MisterKing

07-03-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It depends..

That's the point I've been trying to make!

In your opinion.. When would you fold A-K with that flop?

[/ QUOTE ]
When I think that I couldn't call or raise profitably.

I think it would be useful for you to concentrate on the points I made about sample-size, expected earnings, and results, as well as TomBrooks excellent analysis of your made up hand.

However, if you really want me to come up with a situation where I'd dump AK when the flop comes AXY I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I'm serious.. I want to know what situation(s) you would dump A-K after flopping TPTK.

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, there are plenty of scenarious in which this would happen. It's relatively rare, but it happens.

3 limpers to me and I get frisky and raise with A/images/graemlins/club.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif in middle position. The blinds come along for the ride, everyone calls. 6 to the flop for 12 SBs.

Flop comes A/images/graemlins/heart.gif 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Small blind, who is insanely weak-tight, bets out. Big blind, who is even more weak-tight, raises. Early position, who is more weak tight than any of them, reraises. Next 2 players fold. I'm getting an immediate 18:3 to call here but am likely drawing very, very slim here so I fold.

OK, can we move on and talk about some of the other stuff I brought up?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about this one... Button is TAG (13/9/2) MP player is an idiot, particularly postflop (50/3/1).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, Button calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, Button raises, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

I called out Button's hand when he raised the turn, but had to continue in case I was wrong (MP1's likely dead money made that a very easy decision).

River: (13.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Yeah, overcalling sucks there, but there was still a strong chance I've got a split, and of course they could both surprise me with something less than TPTK (v. doubtful, though).

Final Pot: 16.75 BB