Waiting til the turn with trips...

[RockLobster]

Hi All--

I've read several times that most decent players will wait until the turn to come to life with flopped trips (assuming a pocket pair).

I keep rewording my question and trying to give specifics, but my question is really just this: Is it only appropriate to slowplay your flopped set if the flop is a rainbow? I wonder how many people get burned slowplaying trips and giving a flush-draw the correct odds to see the river (thus beationg the trips).

Any thoughts?

[Bob T.]

I think it is generally incorrect to wait until the turn to come to life with either trips or a set.

A lot of weak players, do that, and when they do, it signals a big hand, and you know that you are in trouble, and either get off your hand, or slow down.

I think that it is generally better to play these hands fast from the beginning. A lot of players will call just about any bet on the flop, and you can get a bet from them on the flop, where you could never get them to call a big bet on the turn.

You can also build a huge pot, by betting the flop, and maybe 3 betting the flop, where everyone will be tied to the pot until the end, because of the size of the pot. If you don't get the bets in until the turn, when you raise there, it will be incorrect for almost everyone to call, and you will more likely win the pot, but it will be much smaller. My favorite hand in a multiway pot, is middle set. There could be as many as three players trying to sort out who has the best kicker, and they are all drawing nearly dead to your set. If the flop gets capped, they are all probably going to call at least a bet on the turn, or river, unless someone is unlucky enough to make two pair and raise.

If you bet your big hands on the flop, you also provide some measure of protection for your smaller hands, because the fact that you bet, doesn't deny that you made a big hand. So betting big hands, makes you money both ways, you make more on your big hands, and you win more often with your other hands.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Dynasty]

Where did you read that? I suggest you stop reading advice from that source.

If you always wait until the turn to show strength with your big hands, you might as well play with your cards face-up.

[balt999]

Generally you should play you trips fast..about 98 percent of the time...But if you up against a tricky player....I'm more likely to wait till the turn...

In poker, sometimes the "Textbook" way isn't the right way...Again it's player dependent...knowlegde of your opponent and the best way to extract (or save) money from them is important.

[oddjob]

this is very wrong. most people will not give you credit for trips. if you raise right away they will put you on anything from a bluff to a drawing hand to top pair top kicker. most of the times you'll get enough callers when you raise the flop.

i've found getting tricky in low limits can often times cost me money.

[RockLobster]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Where did you read that? I suggest you stop reading advice from that source.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here are some examples, but the more I read these the more I see that this is not necessarily the RIGHT thing to do, just what some players choose to do...

J.R.
Re: Dynasty says no [re: D. Andrew]
01/29/03 09:34 AM
Even though the opponent is an old man, I still think he would wait until the turn or river to pop you with trips and position, so I think the flop raise says J.


bernie
Re: Dynasty says no [re: D. Andrew]
01/29/03 09:26 AM
you missed some info on whether he will play trips this fast. many dont. they wait for the turn to lower the boom...

bernie
Re: Playing unimproved medium pairs... [re: Bob T.]
01/08/03 07:18 PM
though betting the flop is fine, i think its optional...many will at most, put you on top pair...maybe the flush draw...since most will wait to the turn with trips to bet.

eMarkM
Re: Folding KK to Aggression - Mistake? [re: Ted]
01/07/03 05:38 PM
he did cold call with something like those and is sitting on trips I would think he'd wait the turn to raise anyway to suck the LP in for another bet.


NOTE: I am not trying to make a case that waiting is the right thing to do, or that the above posts state that it is. I just happened to have read this quite a bit lately and needed clarification.

Thanks!

[sucka]

At a recent $3/6 session with some friends at the Mirage I flopped middle set against a pretty decent size field. I was in middle position with facing an EP bet and a couple callers. I raise. Several call behind me as well as the initial bettor and callers. The river fills me up and I take down a good sized pot - getting several callers with only a pair and one with Ace high thinking that a half dozen of us were bluffing or something.

Anyway, the older gentlemen next to me (who cold called 2 behind me on the flop with bottom pair and an undercard) says, "Son, you aren't supposed to raise your set on the flop - you'll scare people away...".

Hmmmm............. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[J.R.]

Many players (the large majority!) lose money playing poker.

While many players will play a particular hand the same way, it is not always correct to mimic the plays of the many.

[RockLobster]

Great post, now I'm sure to remember the right thing to do!!!

[JTG51]

Notice those posts just said most players will wait, not that it's the right thing to do.

The truth is, most players lose in the long run. Thus, most players must be doing the wrong thing a lot of the time.

Dynasty hit it on the head, in my opinion, when he said always waiting to raise your big hands is like playing your cards face up. If you only raise your top pair type of hands on the flop, but wait till the turn to raise your sets, smart opponents will notice very quickly.

[STOSH1]

To really spice up this thread, everyone could post their favoriate bad beat where they flopped a small boat, bet and raised at every oppertunity and STILL got drawn out on!! /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif
Slowplaying can only help if you have totally crippled the deck.

[sucka]

If I would have only had Clarkmeister's, "Shhh...I'm stacking your chips" in my arsenal at the time it would have been a glorius end to that hand.

Anyway, the funniest part is that several people at the table started talking about how they would have played my hand on the flop. It's funny at the LL tables - you'll always find a couple morons that will advertise how they play hands.

Use that and every other bit of information to your advantage. The moral of the story - particularly in LL games is to hammer em' when you got it. Most players are completely oblivious to pot odds and what it 'usually' means when someone raises a potentially scary flop with several left to act behind them. They have a hard enough time playing their own hands (usually quite poorly to boot) so don't give them credit for playing yours as well.

[bernie]

always suprised when i read excerpts of mine from one thread appearing in other threads....blows me away...

dynasty is dead on on this one. and this is one reason we make money against typical players....

this is a very common move among up to some intermediate players. way, way back KJS clued me in on blasting away early. but for different reasons at the time. i noticed later on as i implemented blasting early that the opponents would misread my strength. because THEY would generally wait for the turn...

now there are times to wait, and for many different and contradictory reasons. i remember when i was learning the fundamentals how i thought it was great to wai til the turn....then after conferrring with KJS and studying how others play etc...i factor in of how i play this type of hand in regards to how my opponents would play it. then play it differently to extract more depending on the situation, and what i want to accomplish with action.

i dont think the posts you cite, not just mine, but the others too, dont really show it's the right thing to do, but how 'predicatable' the play can be. it is a very overused ploy for many typical players...

to a lesser degree, im sure many have seen players flop a near lock hand, then wait to c/r the turn killing their action. then they have that triumphant look on their face ignoring, or just not knowing, how many chips they really missed out on...

that said, i play trips and sets very optional between betting the flop and turn. even though they are vulnerable depending on the board, they have alot of value in redrawing....and they are very dynamic in the way you can play them....

hands i switch plays for more tactical reasons are hands like 2 pair or top pair....

if i flop a nut str8 or nut flush, im also very willing to bet out with them. even a FH. not to mention quads. who's going to put you on it? the opponents generally will think you wont have it because, 'who bets the nuts this early?' the fact is, when you flop a monster, one of the best ways to collect is to bet where they can put you on the most variety of hands, not betting where youre hand is more definable. but again, i dont ALWAYS bet this way. once they clue in a little, then you have to alter it a little.

there's nothing like the feeling of someone raising you, and you have the nut hand.

remember, the saying youd like to hear isnt that 'he plays good cards'

it's, 'i cant put him on a hand'

ciao

b

[bernie]

"While many players will play a particular hand the same way, it is not always correct to mimic the plays of the many. "

unless you can do it as a bluff with a much lesser hand than what they would put you on. b/c thats the hand that they'd play that way. hence, they may be more willing to fold...

somthing to watch for

b

[bernie]

loved your example. it was perfect....it should be added to clarks thread of how the fish think. they certainly dont think based on hand experience. especially when the hand just occured...

"It's funny at the LL tables - you'll always find a couple morons that will advertise how they play hands. "

this is key. many serious beginners think that everyone lies at the table. ive found it quite different. the blowhards tend to stick out. the better players basically wont talk about how they play, though theyll try and ellicit how others do. if you hear a guy deflecting questions about his play into how the person asking plays, then not really revealing anything about his play, it may be worth taking note. many players are there for camradrie (i know i spelled it wrong) and to pass the time. so theyll state their opinion on plays as theyll state their thoughts on a trade by a local sports team...it will usually be how they actually think about the game.

this is one big advantage ive found in playing in a foreign room with a bunch of yappers. youll learn quicker how theyll play than they will learn your style. in general. sure, they know how each other plays, but the more they yap, the quicker you catch up.

i wont go into the posts from players who think you have to bet every street to protect their hand. and many times it isnt the correct play either as far as helping your opponents make mistakes. but thats a different thread altogether, and less relating to trips or sets.

good post...

b

[Zag]

I agree with the bulk of the people who say you should rarely slowplay your trips. If you are playing correctly (i.e. tight and aggressive), then the other players should be used to you coming in with a raise when you do come in at all. They won't see anything unusual or suspicious -- if they've been calling your other raises, they will probably call this one too. (Of course, if they haven't, you've found the world's only uber-tight low limit table and you need to bluff a little more.)

However, there are always cases: I was playing $5-10 online with a maniac on my immediate left. If checked to him, he would bet out literally 100% of the time. Since the other players had already become used to him, they would call with most anything. I waited till the turn to check-raise, trapping in two other callers and winning a huge pot.

[RockLobster]

I appreciate the posts, you are all most helpful. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Louie Landale]

In what appears to be a minority opinion: when you flop big your hand doesn't need protection, it needs opponent investment. Your decision really is whether you can get more of the opponents money in the pot by slow-playing or not.

Don't worry about "letting in the flush draws"; they are going to call anyway. Don't worry about "letting them make runner runner" since that's so unlikely it doesn't affect your EV much.

Most low-limit games feature many more flop calls than turn calls, so slow-playing is for the birds: bet while the betting is good. The exception is when someone else bets on your right; now a raise greatly affects whether they call.

I will say without reservation that over-all I'm MORE likely to bet the flop then check the turn then I am to check the flop and bet the turn.

Having said all that, I will say that you NEED to flail away with your big hands on the flop if you often also bet your weaker hands. Think about it; if you routinely slow-play surely the opponents will notice, and NOW what to they figure you have when you DO bet? Reasonable players are going to pin your ears to the wall from time-to-time since they know the best you have is top pair.

Do not automatically slow play: you need a reasonable specific reason to do so.

- Louie

[Jim Easton]

Is it only appropriate to slowplay your flopped set if the flop is a rainbow?

I would say yes, the only time it is appropriate to slowplay is if there are no draws. Note that does not mean you should always slowplay in that situation - see Dynasty's post.

If there is a flush draw out, I would bet/raise with a set the vast majority of the time. Same thing if there are 2 cards to a straight.

Last week there was a post about wimpy play with AA against a K-8-4 rainbow flop. I would usually wait until the turn to raise with KK. I would almost always raise the flop with the 44, and I would usually raise the flop with the 88.

Many low limit players like to play any ace, so ace high flops are great for raising right away, even if it is a rainbow, because you will get lots of action.