something rather disturbing...

[axioma]

poker edge. yes i know its been around a while, but the recent thread really made me stop and think.

at what point do we say "no, thats crossing a line that shouldnt be crossed"? i use PT and PV, so im no purist saint or anything, but whilst reading through that poker edge thread something did not sit well at all. I cant put my finger on it but something felt pretty wrong.

if nothing else i feel as though the people behind PE are somehow exploting those that do not use it, for thier own profits.

this is not how poker should be /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[SackUp]

did you really need to make a new thread about this?? There have already been several threads on using PT, PV, PE and others.

It's the same with anything. Those of use with the best tools and smarts will always do the best.

[pshabi]

[ QUOTE ]
if nothing else i feel as though the people behind PE are somehow exploting those that do not use it, for thier own profits.

this is not how poker should be /images/graemlins/frown.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]
Huh? They're providing a service. You're purchasing it and using to exploit those that don't have it for YOUR profit.

Just like PokerTracker.

You may feel bad about PE but that's not the reason.

[HRFats]

[ QUOTE ]
did you really need to make a new thread about this?? There have already been several threads on using PT, PV, PE and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the same guy that started a new thread on the July Party Bonus.

[bigredlemon]

ZING!

[axioma]

not that i have to answer to your rather useless question in the first place, but this isnt really about just PE. reading that thread was just what made me think.

poker tracker in itself does not exploit anyone. you are paying for the software then you do the work yourself in order to get data.

PE is essentially reducing YOURS and MINE expection, then charging others for this information. remeber, poker is a zero sum game, and the value you get from PE has to come from somwhere.

in my opinion (and its only my opinion), PE is i think going a little too far. i dont have problems with people datamining for themselves, and even with them trading data with other users, but to mine on a large, COMERCIAL scale is less that comendable.

i dont like it. and more generally, if you do like it, where do YOU draw the line?

[skoal2k4]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
did you really need to make a new thread about this?? There have already been several threads on using PT, PV, PE and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the same guy that started a new thread on the July Party Bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh

[garion888]

Actually...poker is a negative sum game...

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
did you really need to make a new thread about this?? There have already been several threads on using PT, PV, PE and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

This from the same guy that started a new thread on the July Party Bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya and I subsequently deleted it 2 secs after posting. The party bonus thread wasn't as glaring....honest mistake..and I rectified it rather quickly. HUGE difference.

There have been about a million posts on all these things including a post only about PE.

And there are limited people who use any of these programs. It is merely data that anyone can compile and anyone has the opportunity to use. i would draw an analogy to something else but you would probably just dismiss it and hence not worth it.

Stop using PT and PV if you are so against these programs. No one is forcing you to use them.

Regardless these programs are merely aids and do not play poker for you. You still have to play the game and these just help you get little edges.

[Raydain]

8 replies and not a legit answer to the question yet. Axioma made a new thread to ask, where are we going to draw the line on computer aids.

The game of poker is suppose to be played by an individual. It his own observation of other players that gives him a true edge over other players.

First Pokertracker came out: This is a great piece of software that helps you analyze your own game and helps you get better when you play at the tables

Next came GT+ and PV: All this does is display the stats which you have already collected. A real time saver.

Pokeredge: Now you're not collecting data by yourself, you have others get the stats on every pokerplayer on your site. This is giving you in depth notes on every player your playing against.

But all these aids just help you do what you could have done yourself. You still have to play poker right?
In my thread I made a few days ago I thought the best response went something like this: "Steroids make baseball players better like pokeredge makes poker players better. The baseball players still have to hit the ball so the only people that don't benefit from this are the players that don't use steroids. It's still baseball though. But steroids are illegal because it takes away the esence of the game. Steroids are to baseball like Pokeredge is to Poker."
NOTE: This is not my idea, I just reworded it. Check my thread on "Pokertracker is cheating" for the OP.

So what's next? We get a bot that analyzes the statistics and tells us what the most optimal move will be? It will still be poker won't it? I mean we don't HAVE to do what the bot says. We'll just be taking advantage of people have not paid for this mechanical aid.

Back to the OP question, where do we draw the line? Is the bot that tells us what to do too far? Is a bot WE program too far? Since we programed it, its making the same moves we would make. It's just saving us time.

One last thought - Once the sea of fish realize the kind of help we have been using what's the response going to be?

[MS Sunshine]

"One last thought - Once the sea of fish realize the kind of help we have been using what's the response going to be?"

Same as always, "I thought you had AK".

MS Sunshine

[pokerplayer28]

youre right about everything as for the question where do we draw the line? we dont the sites do

whats the diffence between a bot we programed from PT and PV? nothing except the sites say no bots and have said nothing about PT and PV yet

[jman220]

[ QUOTE ]
"One last thought - Once the sea of fish realize the kind of help we have been using what's the response going to be?"

Same as always, "I thought you had AK".

MS Sunshine

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[Mike Haven]

[ QUOTE ]
whats the diffence between a bot we programed from PT and PV? nothing except the sites say no bots and have said nothing about PT and PV yet

[/ QUOTE ]

"With reference to your e-mail please note that we have our teams of game experts in consultation with the Technical Team constantly evaluating such software programs/applications, in order to determine the suitability of such third party programs and their compatibility with our Poker Client software and Terms and Conditions.

The outcome of this exercise has revealed that at present, we have no immediate plans to block this software, but the situation is under constant review.

I can only apologize for any miscommunication in this regard, and assure you that out intention has always been to protect the interest of our players without compromising on the security and integrity of our card room.

In connection to the same, please be aware that we have adequate security systems in place to detect and prevent the use of BOT programs in conjunction with our poker software."

[SackUp]

[ QUOTE ]
"One last thought - Once the sea of fish realize the kind of help we have been using what's the response going to be?"

Same as always, "I thought you had AK".

MS Sunshine

[/ QUOTE ]

haahhaah I love it!

[axioma]

thanks for a sensible answer raydain.

thinking about it some more i realise that its the large , comercial scale of PE that is getting to me mostly. poker IS a zero sum game (of course not including rake), to the person who said otherwise.

so what happens is you pay the PE people X amount because you determin that it is worth >X amount in value to yourself. However this amount you make is comming from somewhere, namely out of the pokets of players who do not use PE. Its that simple - hense the PE people are EXPLOITING you and me, the people who do not use thier app, for thier own comercial gain. Very, very shady IMO.

im really surprised that more people have not spoke up against it. that in itself is also pretty worrying, because with complaicanty like that the border of what is acceptable is slowly eroded away.

[Theodore Donald Kiravatsos]

So...

Going to Law School, eh? Super!! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif This world couldn't possibly have enough lawyers!

Planning to be a lawyer for Big Tobacco? You seem to have twisted the morality on this issue enough to demonstrate you could be a real asset for them.

[Spook]

I don't think it will help, but I emailed Party about this and storing observed hands on the hard drive.

[O Doyle Rules]

Hey axioma,

I find it quite ironic that players that are using Playverview and Gametime are so against Poker Edge.

In my estimation it performs the same function as those programs with more convenience, but at a higher cost.

Could part of your distaste of Poker Edge come from the fact that you are losing some of the edge over the players that did not datamine on their own and use PV or GT?

Not trying to be a smart axx, I think it is a legitemate question. It's like the line I crossed is fine, but go just one milimeter further and it's all wrong.

[keithc]

axioma,

I happen to agree with you. I use PT/PV as well, yet PokerEdge seems to cross some ethical line for me. It may seem hypocritical, given my reliance on these other software tools, but nevertheless that's how I feel.

Ethics aside, there are some practical reasons that fuel my apprehension. I'm not that concerned about having PE users track me. Rather, its the "collateral damage" it may inflict on the other software tools. Whether or not PE is ethical or not is certainly open to debate, but surely most people would agree it is more ...egregious than these other programs. Should PE proliferate, I fear PartyPoker and other sites might take a harder line toward all such programs. Even without PE, it looks as if PartyPoker is considering banning PT/PV/Gametime altogether (see threads on this forum, and their updated T&S). PE might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

All that said, I think the emergence of PE was inevitable, given the availability of stats to begin with. I don't know if it would be possible or desirable to prohibit its use.

Finally, I think this is a legitimate ethical debate, and I think those denying that it is are being disingenuous. Someone had previously written:

> Not trying to be a smart axx, I think it is a
> legitemate question. It's like the line I crossed
> is fine, but go just one milimeter further and it's all
> wrong.

I think that aptly describes how axioma and I feel. Though it may seem like an arbitrarily drawn line, that scant millimeter is enough for me to be uncomfortable. I don't think its as simple as "if you use PT you must be OK with PE". Defining laws & ethics often comes down to deciding where that millimeter lies. To give a rather poor analogy, if I have sex with an 18 year old, that is fine (actually, great!). However, if I have sex with a 17 year old the day before her 18th birthday, that is statutory rape (in most states). I am not in favor of repealing statutory rape laws.

My name is Keith, and this is my first 2+2 forum post.

Kind regards,

~kc

[primetime32]

I would compare this to blackjack and counting cards. If a smart player learns to count cards he can make a ton of money if he uses the info properly. But when a moron learns to count cards he can actually lose more money if he doesnt apply it properly. So i just think that the good players were good already and this added information, while helpful will only be helpful to a handful of people that probably already have an edge on the vast majority of players.

[grinin]

Best "first post" I have seen in a while in the zoo.

Welcome to the forums.

[axioma]

great first post Keith, i think we are on the same page.

welcome to the forum.

[Meatmaw]

Where is that recent review someone posted on poker edge? Been meaning to read it but having a hell of a time getting the search to turn up anything (+poker +edge and pokeredge don't find it??).

[grinin]

It was removed. I assume (which we all know what happens when we do that), because it appeared to be a rather roundabout way of avoiding the forum spam rule.

[TemetNosce]

Very well put, Keith. I could not agree more.

[LowDown22]

[ QUOTE ]
poker edge. yes i know its been around a while, but the recent thread really made me stop and think.

at what point do we say "no, thats crossing a line that shouldnt be crossed"? i use PT and PV, so im no purist saint or anything, but whilst reading through that poker edge thread something did not sit well at all. I cant put my finger on it but something felt pretty wrong.

if nothing else i feel as though the people behind PE are somehow exploting those that do not use it, for thier own profits.

this is not how poker should be .


[/ QUOTE ]

I have similar feelings. We all draw this imaginary line somewhere, but in the end it's the poker sites themselves that have to enforce it. If you really disagree with some of these programs I think you should send emails to the poker sites or play at sites that prohibit/limit such programs.

[ QUOTE ]
if nothing else i feel as though the people behind PE are somehow exploting those that do not use it, for thier own profits.


[/ QUOTE ]
Really, what makes you think that? I mean, you go to their site and one of the first things you see is a spot to enter your username. Then it pops up "You are tracked by PokerEdge." Now you have a choice - do I buy the program to hide my stats, or not and realize that many players now know my stats (without ever playing me) and can avoid/exploit me.