A PokerStars 5/10 SH hand - AKo

[augie00]

I think this is a pretty clear fold on the river. Who agrees?

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, Button checks.

River: (8 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, Hero folds, Button folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

[SmileyEH]

Is this a joke? Call the flop, bet the turn, call the river. I know you're a good nl player - but this hand stinks.

edit: that was a bit harsh. Raising the flop is prolly ok. But you must call this river.

-SmileyEH

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this a joke? Call the flop, bet the turn, call the river. I know you're a good nl player - but this hand stinks.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a joke.

So you prefer the line that gets you no information whatsoever?

edit: oops. didn't see the edit.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this a joke? Call the flop, bet the turn, call the river. I know you're a good nl player - but this hand stinks.

edit: that was a bit harsh. Raising the flop is prolly ok. But you must call this river.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a joke.

So you prefer the line that gets you no information whatsoever?

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, that in limit-the information you gain is rarely worth the price you need to pay.

-SmileyEH

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is, that in limit-the information you gain is rarely worth the price you need to pay.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd prefer to let others elaborate, but I think in the case of this hand you are wrong, and that is doing quick mental math in my head. And I am no good at math. But I will do the math out loud if nobody else replies.

[jason_t]

wtf?

[synthtrance]

I don't understand your play here. You raise the flop presumably to get info but then check the turn and fold the river?
It seems like you were ready to fold just anywhere when faced with a bet.

[Grease]

I definitely don't agree here. Bet the turn, call the river.

If c/r, reevaluate based on player type, but I'm probably seeing showdown here.

Folding here made me cringe.

[ThisHo]

how is this a fold Getting 9:1? Are you that sure that SB or Button has a J or AA or 44 or 22? I'm not. I think its completely possible that villain has a 4 or QQ or TT or something else that made them call the flop 2 bet and then wanted to see the action on the turn before proceeding. When the turn gets checked through they are thinking that the J isn't out there and they go ahead and fire.

I think I see your thought process : you think that SB called the flop hoping to c/r the turn, then it got checked through which sucked so he led out the river. Thats certainly possible, but I don't think I'd put 9:1 on it. I think its a call and fold if Button raises behind us.

side note ... might have been better to just ask what your action should be on the river or possibly show that you folded and ask for opinions. As much as I don't want it to, knowing that button folded really makes saying "call" MUCH easier (and yes, I'm a noob poster)

ThisHo

[augie00]

Ok I will give it a shot, I am bad at math so this could be very wrong, and if it is I aplogzie.

Augie line:

On the flop, there are 8SB in the pot. The BB comes out firing. I know the BB doesn't have anything, so I raise costing me an extra 1/2BB. I see that two (2) people come in behind me, cold calling, and the BB calls. Okay, so chances are someone has a J.

Money invested after the flop: 1 BB

Smiley line:

On the flop, there are 8SB in the pot. The BB comes out firing, and since I think I have the best hand I call. Two others come in behind me, and I have no idea what they have at all.

Money invested after the flop: .5BB

Augie line:

The turn comes off...a king! Holy cow! Wait a minute...I thought I was winning on the flop...so this card didn't help me, right? And two people cold called my raise, so there is a darn good chance one of them has a J. Button closes the action with a check.

Money invested after the flop: 1BB

Smiley line:

The turn comes off...a king! Holy cow! So I fire out a bet on the turn, and one of two things happens: I get 1 or more calls, or the SB or BB check-raises me. So I'm either still getting no info, or I'm getting a ton of info (one of them has a jack.)

Money invested after the flop: 1.5BB or 2.5BB

Augie line:

Wow, SB comes firing out on the last street. I bet he has something. I bet there's a good chance that he can beat kings, and since I did a good job of controlling the pot on the turn it is still small and I can afford to fold this, so I do.

Money invested postflop: 1BB

Smiley line:

Wow, the SB comes firing out on the last street after check-raising me. Guess I gotta call since I made those kings.

Money invested after the flop: 2.5BB or 3.5BB

By check/folding I saved myself at least 1.5BB! Investing half a BB to save 1.5 seems like it's worth the trouble. But maybe I am wrong. Someone correct me, because I think I am right.

[augie00]

And let me add, if the flop had been something like J24 I would have NEVER considered folding.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like you were ready to fold just anywhere when faced with a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

After taking the lead pf, and taking the lead on the flop, when two people call a raise cold behind me I have a hard time believing that neither of them have any better than a four.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
You raise the flop presumably to get info but then check the turn and fold the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh...yeah. I raised the flop and realized that THREE PEOPLE called my raise. I guess it's possible that they each could hold a four in their hand. What kind of info am I supposed to be looking for if that isn't it?

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems like you were ready to fold just anywhere when faced with a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

After taking the lead pf, and taking the lead on the flop, when two people call a raise cold behind me I have a hard time believing that neither of them have any better than a four.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you know your opposition better than I do, but simply because those players are coldcalling, does not mean they automatically have better hands.

-SmileyEH

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wtf?

[/ QUOTE ]

huh?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad turn check. Bad river fold.

[nolanfan34]

[ QUOTE ]
By check/folding I saved myself at least 1.5BB! Investing half a BB to save 1.5 seems like it's worth the trouble. But maybe I am wrong. Someone correct me, because I think I am right.

[/ QUOTE ]

You "saved" yourself nothing if you folded the winning hand. That's the bottom line.

I know you play a lot of no limit, tournaments, etc. Checking behind on the turn like that I know is something that's common, to keep the pot small, etc.

But this is just horrible poker IMO. Yeah, someone can have a J. If you bet and get check-raised on the turn, then you can fold I think. But you're playing SHORTHANDED. SB could have been planning to check-raise with a hand like KQ or KT that he cold called with on the flop. Could be a middle pair.

The bottom line is, without any reads, which you didn't tell us about, this is just a horrible fold on the river. Especially after raising the flop, and HITTING A K ON THE TURN.

[augie00]

I am sorry. But you all have been duped!

I thought about the river for a few seconds, really really really really wanted to fold, but called anyway. And he showed me QJ. I was really upset that I didn't follow through with my read, and I thought folding was truly the right play. So I decided to post it on 2+2.

But realizing that everyone was simply going to say "getting 9:1 you gotta call this" I decided to post it as if I actually followed through with my original read, to get viewpoints on that line.

Despite all the resistance, I still think folding is the right play. If only one person had cold-called I like calling a lot more, but when the 2nd guy comes in cold-calling I just get that feeling of impending doom that I'm beat.

edit: i am still open to the idea that I'm actually a dumbass, however.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry. But you all have been duped!

I thought about the river for a few seconds, really really really really wanted to fold, but called anyway. And he showed me QJ. I was really upset that I didn't follow through with my read, and I thought folding was truly the right play. So I decided to post it on 2+2.

But realizing that everyone was simply going to say "getting 9:1 you gotta call this" I decided to post it as if I actually followed through with my original read, to get viewpoints on that line.

Despite all the resistance, I still think folding is the right play. If only one person had cold-called I like calling a lot more, but when the 2nd guy comes in cold-calling I just get that feeling of impending doom that I'm beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling the river was correct. Period.

[Trix]

I think you are good on the river way more often than you have to.

Not sure I like the turncheck without any reads either.

[ThisHo]

not sure I like this approach to hand posting, but whatever...

If you have a strong read on the button or SB that they have the Jack then please give us reasons for it in the OP. Descriptions of villains matter in limit too.

I'm calling that river bet every time because:
a - button isn't going to check through on the turn if he has a Jack so unless you've got a read that he's really sneaky/tricky/bad then I'm not giving him credit for the Jack AND if he has one, he's raising and I can safely fold
b - again, no read on SB and its not unlikely that hands he'd call a raise with PF include a J, but its not impossible that they are TT/99/88/77 either. I think that SB will bet at this pot without the Jack more than 1 in 9 times and that's the important number.

**

I think that betting the turn isn't a bad play either and then folding to a c/r because that would be very clearly how a Jack would play and maybe he'll call you down with QQ or TT or 99 with the "you don't have a Jack" mentality.

ThisHo

[Bascule]

[ QUOTE ]

Calling the river was correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You already asserted your opinion. The OP made a good case for folding, your two posts failed to address his argument in any way, and were valueless IMO.

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Calling the river was correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You already asserted your opinion. The OP made a good case for folding, your two posts failed to address his argument in any way, and were valueless IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was adequately explained in other posts.

-SmileyEH

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Calling the river was correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You already asserted your opinion. The OP made a good case for folding, your two posts failed to address his argument in any way, and were valueless IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

In his defense we did talk about it on IRC, but then again he might not have elaborated had we not.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Calling the river was correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You already asserted your opinion. The OP made a good case for folding, your two posts failed to address his argument in any way, and were valueless IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the value was to make him realize he is suffering from results oriented thinking and that a call was correct regardless of the results.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Calling the river was correct. Period.

[/ QUOTE ]

You already asserted your opinion. The OP made a good case for folding, your two posts failed to address his argument in any way, and were valueless IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

In his defense we did talk about it on IRC, but then again he might not have elaborated had we not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have elaborated had we not, but since we talked there I see no point.

[jason_t]

[15:54] &lt;@jason_t&gt; augie i don't mind the turn check behind if you intend to call one bet on the river
[15:54] &lt;@s0ma&gt; jason, i'm going to kill you for not reading the AA hand
[15:54] *** SteveL91 (~Tepes@ool-4355ed80.dyn.optonline.net) joined
[15:54] &lt;@jason_t&gt; soma i read it
[15:54] &lt;soweak&gt; It's been a lot time since I've used irc regularly
[15:54] &lt;@s0ma&gt; liar
[15:54] &lt;@jason_t&gt; stfu
[15:54] &lt;@jason_t&gt; he didn't cap preflop
[15:54] &lt;@jason_t&gt; i read it
[15:54] &lt;@s0ma&gt; did you see the EV calculations
[15:54] &lt;@jason_t&gt; no
[15:54] &lt;@s0ma&gt; N00B
[15:54] &lt;@jason_t&gt; i'm thinking about the hand
[15:54] &lt;@s0ma&gt; alright
[15:54] &lt;@jason_t&gt; i had a bad beat earlier today that i'm trying to take care of
[15:55] &lt;augie00&gt; perhaps sometime i will make a post speaking in a general sense about calling on the river even when you think you are beat
[15:55] &lt;@jason_t&gt; was cooking lunch and my stove broke
[15:55] &lt;@s0ma&gt; gg
[15:55] &lt;aK13&gt; [15:55] &lt;augie00&gt; perhaps sometime i will make a post speaking in a general sense about calling on the river even when you think you are beat &lt;-- because the pot is "big"
[15:55] &lt;augie00&gt; because it is obvious that it's something that you and I disagree on
[15:55] &lt;@s0ma&gt; die AK
[15:55] &lt;@jason_t&gt; augie: either bet/fold the turn or call the river.
[15:55] &lt;aK13&gt; haha
[15:55] &lt;augie00&gt; i would have been happy to fold the turn!
[15:55] &lt;augie00&gt; nobody bet!
[15:55] &lt;@s0ma&gt; i really wish ed miller never wrote that in his book
[15:55] &lt;augie00&gt; hahaha
[15:55] &lt;@jason_t&gt; augie, i mean bet and fold to the inevitable check/raise
[15:56] &lt;augie00&gt; oh
[15:56] &lt;@jason_t&gt; but checking behind and calling a river bet is fine too.
[15:56] &lt;@jason_t&gt; checking the turn and folding the river is ridiculous
[15:56] &lt;@s0ma&gt; i actually like checking and calling the river more
[15:56] &lt;@jason_t&gt; yes, i don't mind a check behind/river call at all
[15:57] &lt;aK13&gt; what? are we talking about the AA hand?
[15:57] &lt;aK13&gt; i dont see any turn/river cards.
[15:57] &lt;@s0ma&gt; no, augie's hand
[15:57] &lt;@jason_t&gt; no, the AK hand that augie posted
[15:57] &lt;aK13&gt; oh
[15:57] &lt;augie00&gt; i guess i can see why it is rediculous if you assume that the K is winning at least some of the time
[15:57] &lt;@s0ma&gt; it is going to win some of the time
[15:58] &lt;augie00&gt; after two cold calls and the raisor calling, i would disagree
[15:58] &lt;aK13&gt; oh the JJ2K 4 way thing?
[15:58] &lt;@s0ma&gt; you provided no reads
[15:58] &lt;@s0ma&gt; these guys could be subhuman retards for all i know
[15:58] &lt;@jason_t&gt; only CMI
[15:58] &lt;aK13&gt; CallMeIshmael
[15:58] &lt;@s0ma&gt; lol
[15:58] &lt;aK13&gt; lol
[15:58] &lt;augie00&gt; you are right, they could. i try not to group everyone into the subhuman retard category
[15:59] &lt;@s0ma&gt; but i agree with you if i think all the players are decent
[15:59] &lt;aK13&gt; i dont think you're losing there enough to warrant a fold.
[15:59] &lt;@s0ma&gt; but if they're pulling plays like this with QJ, i don't think they are decent
[15:59] &lt;@jason_t&gt; the point Augie is that you have to invest one more bet in this pot one way or another
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[15:59] &lt;augie00&gt; well the SB was obviously trying to checkraise
[15:59] &lt;@jason_t&gt; you're good here pretty damn often
[16:00] &lt;@s0ma&gt; b/w this this channel and aim, i will never accomplish another thing in my life
[16:00] &lt;augie00&gt; well, i don't _have_ to invest one more bet if i am losing
[16:00] &lt;augie00&gt; pretty damn often is an overstatement
[16:00] &lt;augie00&gt; but i say again
[16:00] &lt;augie00&gt; calling on the river, in a general sense, is something you and i disagree on
[16:00] &lt;@jason_t&gt; augie you don't know you're losing if you don't bet/fold or check behind/call
[16:00] &lt;@jason_t&gt; you and I
[16:00] &lt;@jason_t&gt; no
[16:00] &lt;@jason_t&gt; you and the whole damn forum
[16:00] &lt;augie00&gt; yeah i see that
[16:01] &lt;augie00&gt; i will keep thinking about it, for now i'll accept that i'm a complete chook
[16:01] &lt;@s0ma&gt; lol
[16:02] &lt;augie00&gt; cause obviously if nobody agrees with me i am wrong
[16:02] &lt;augie00&gt; /images/graemlins/wink.gif
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[16:02] &lt;@s0ma&gt; that's what copernicus said
[16:02] &lt;@jason_t&gt; augie there's two ways to look at it
[16:02] &lt;aK13&gt; isn't it possible that SB and button might call with a 4 if they suck? or a PP?
[16:02] &lt;@jason_t&gt; one is that you can bet that turn for value, and fold to the raise pretty safely
[16:02] &lt;@shant&gt; can i get the link for the hand youre talkin about?
[16:03] &lt;aK13&gt; http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2763394&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1#Post2763741
[16:03] &lt;@s0ma&gt; shant
[16:03] &lt;@jason_t&gt; or you think, those cold calls are scary, i just want to get to showdown and checkbehind
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[16:03] &lt;@jason_t&gt; but thinking i should check behind AND fold the river is really weak/tight
[16:03] &lt;@jason_t&gt; this isn't no limit
[16:03] &lt;@jason_t&gt; your whole stack isn't in jeopardy
[16:03] &lt;@jason_t&gt; and if you aren't making bets here on the turn you're missing value in your hands
[16:04] &lt;@jason_t&gt; and if your checking behind and folding on the river, you're folding winners and missing value
[16:04] &lt;aK13&gt; ^^
[16:04] &lt;augie00&gt; the only part i can reconsider is calling on the river...betting on the turn is completley out of the question
[16:04] &lt;@jason_t&gt; but somehow, one way or another, you MUST invest one more bet in this pot
[16:04] &lt;aK13&gt; i actually like betting the turn over everything, personally.
[16:04] &lt;@jason_t&gt; no, betting on the turn isn't out of the question
[16:05] &lt;@s0ma&gt; i hate it
[16:05] &lt;@shant&gt; whats wrong with betting the turn?
[16:05] &lt;@s0ma&gt; i'd rather check behind and call the river
[16:05] &lt;augie00&gt; shant: i will get raised
[16:05] &lt;@jason_t&gt; there's nothing wrong with betting the turn. i would bet there and if sb check/raised i'd insta-fold and never look back
[16:05] &lt;@shant&gt; and then you can fold
[16:05] &lt;aK13&gt; exactly
[16:05] &lt;@jason_t&gt; you won't get raised for your whole stack
[16:05] &lt;@s0ma&gt; the problem is jason
[16:05] &lt;@s0ma&gt; nm
[16:05] &lt;@shant&gt; if someone goes cold call on a JJ4 flop and then checkraises a K turn after the flop action, i lose
[16:05] &lt;SteveL91&gt; dumb question, but if the button and SB don't call two cold on the flop, are you betting the turn?
[16:06] &lt;augie00&gt; steveL: every time
[16:06] &lt;@s0ma&gt; yes
[16:06] &lt;@s0ma&gt; not a dumb question at all
[16:06] &lt;SteveL91&gt; okay, just making sure
[16:06] &lt;@s0ma&gt; it changes the entire hand
[16:06] &lt;SteveL91&gt; was curious how much the action of those two influenced the line
[16:06] &lt;augie00&gt; the cold calls are the reason i feld for the hills
[16:06] &lt;@s0ma&gt; so check behind on the turn
[16:06] &lt;@s0ma&gt; every once and a while, you'll spike another king
[16:06] &lt;@s0ma&gt; or induce a bluff
[16:07] &lt;@s0ma&gt; from 44-TT
[16:07] &lt;@s0ma&gt; and you can still fold to a raise
[16:07] &lt;aK13&gt; and miss value when you hae the best hand on the turn already =(
[16:07] &lt;@s0ma&gt; well if it's checked ot me on the river
[16:07] &lt;@s0ma&gt; i'll bet
[16:07] &lt;aK13&gt; by hands like TT who will call you
[16:07] &lt;SteveL91&gt; yea.. given the board and their cold-calls, I suspect the river fold is probably correct
[16:07] &lt;aK13&gt; on the turn
[16:07] &lt;@s0ma&gt; yeah i know what you're saying
[16:07] &lt;@s0ma&gt; but it's like jason said
[16:07] &lt;augie00&gt; everyone disagrees with us steve /images/graemlins/frown.gif
[16:07] &lt;@s0ma&gt; you can get the single bet in on the turn or the river
[16:07] &lt;augie00&gt; i need tommy angelo! maybe he will agree with me!
[16:08] &lt;SteveL91&gt; but, I dunno. I have nightmares of someone with 88 thinking you whiffed with AQ and taking a shot on the river
[16:08] &lt;aK13&gt; we miss 2 bets form hands like TT
[16:08] &lt;aK13&gt; or weird QQ or 99
[16:08] &lt;@s0ma&gt; but we gain bets from hands that would fold the turn :O
[16:08] &lt;aK13&gt; or even a 4
[16:08] &lt;@shant&gt; they could very well have coldcalled with 88 or 99 or some other crap
[16:08] &lt;@shant&gt; if youre going to check the turn then call the river
[16:09] &lt;augie00&gt; i think the fact that it was 2 cold callers vs. 1 is important...everyone is ignoring that
[16:09] &lt;@shant&gt; but its also SH
[16:09] &lt;aK13&gt; we aren't ignoring it
[16:09] &lt;augie00&gt; if it were even 1 coldcaller i'd feel better about calling the river
[16:09] &lt;@s0ma&gt; one of them read their hand wrong and thought they had a gutshot
[16:09] &lt;aK13&gt; its SH, and there are bad players that do random [censored]
[16:09] &lt;aK13&gt; and i think you're reading too much into it
[16:09] &lt;aK13&gt; if this was the 30 game
[16:09] &lt;SteveL91&gt; actually, was it a 6-max table of a SH full table?
[16:09] &lt;aK13&gt; yeah, i agree with you
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[16:09] &lt;aK13&gt; but not here.
[16:09] &lt;SteveL91&gt; I don't know that being SH changes the dynamics that much if it was a full table that went short
[16:10] &lt;aK13&gt; those players suck at SH typically
[16:10] &lt;aK13&gt; they don't loosen up
[16:10] &lt;SteveL91&gt; exactly
[16:10] &lt;aK13&gt; so actally, it is slightly different
[16:10] &lt;SteveL91&gt; which is why I'd like the river fold a lot more at a full table that went short than a 6-max table
[16:10] &lt;augie00&gt; the bottom line to this argument is that i think the cold calls are more information than everyone else does
[16:10] &lt;SteveL91&gt; but I don't play 5/10 so I dunno
[16:11] &lt;@s0ma&gt; yes augie
[16:11] &lt;@s0ma&gt; you are correct
[16:11] &lt;augie00&gt; and that is probably something that i am never willing to compromise on...but maybe some day
[16:11] &lt;aK13&gt; i dont think you can be 90% sure somebody is holding a J though
[16:11] &lt;SteveL91&gt; on a JJ4 two-tone board, what hands are 2 players cold-calling with?
[16:12] &lt;aK13&gt; lots of PPs
[16:12] &lt;aK13&gt; possibly a 4
[16:12] &lt;@s0ma&gt; pocket pairs, 4's
[16:12] &lt;aK13&gt; even an A high that we have dominated.
[16:12] &lt;aK13&gt; because they are bad players
[16:12] &lt;SteveL91&gt; doh, rainbow board.
[16:13] &lt;@s0ma&gt; augie
[16:13] &lt;@s0ma&gt; would you feel the same if there were 2 of a suit?
[16:13] &lt;@s0ma&gt; on the frop
[16:13] &lt;augie00&gt; if the flop came with two hearts or something I would easily call the river
[16:13] &lt;augie00&gt; that changes everything
[16:14] &lt;augie00&gt; but then again that's the rough equivalent of saying "would you still fold the river if the flop were J42"
[16:14] &lt;aK13&gt; what if the river completed the flush?
[16:14] &lt;@shant&gt; you don't think they can be cold calling with pocket pairs? even QT would call here
[16:14] &lt;SteveL91&gt; yea. as I said, I really think the fold is correct, but I don't have the discipline to make it. I think you'll see the SB getting cute with a mid PP pretty often on a board like this
[16:14] &lt;augie00&gt; well if there were a flush draw out there i would have bet the turn
[16:14] &lt;augie00&gt; and that changes things on the river as well
[16:14] &lt;augie00&gt; cause the J would have woken up on the turn
[16:14] &lt;augie00&gt; etc
[16:16] &lt;aK13&gt; as it stands, i think you're folding a winner too often
[16:16] &lt;SteveL91&gt; another dumb question for those who want to call the river: what if BB calls? is Hero good often to overcall?
[16:16] &lt;augie00&gt; yeah probably
[16:16] &lt;aK13&gt; doesn't chagne anything
[16:16] &lt;aK13&gt; BB isn't overcalling with J
[16:16] &lt;augie00&gt; since the BB wouldn't just call with a J
[16:16] &lt;SteveL91&gt; just checking. I didn't think it would matter, but I'm usually wrong lol

[spoohunter]

You can't make these folds 5 handed and expect to win. Folding 10-10 on the river would be bad here.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't make these folds 5 handed and expect to win.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying I can't fold here and expect that I'm a winning player? Because I have evidence to the contrary.

[Bascule]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, the value was to make him realize he is suffering from results oriented thinking and that a call was correct regardless of the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, but I don't think that repeating an assertion without a supporting argument is likely to achieve that.

If a poster posts their preferred line, that tells me "Poster X would play it like that". The reasons are unfortunately unclear. is it the best line? My assessment of the line is reduced to my opinion of the poster, based on earlier posts.

While this can be useful, it leaves a lot of questions - did the poster read the OP accurately? It is unlikely that any of us will face exactly the problem posed in a 2+2 post, the details will always vary. What if the 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif on the turn was the 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif - would that change things? What if the maniac in MP1 was a rock? What if there were 5 players seeing the flop, not 3?

If the poster includes the thought processes behind a decision, it gives the reader a basis for evaluating the quality of the suggested line beyond evaluating the reputation of the poster. It also gives a framework which can be used to solve other problems.

I contend that posts that include supporting arguments are superior to those that do not. Further, I contend that posts that simply repeat earlier assertions are worthless. Jason clearly values the 2+2 forums and wishes to improve them - I suggest that one improvement would be to have fewer posts that assert a line of play with no supporting argument.