Rumor: Owens to Raiders for Porter (x-post from OOT)

[scott8]

ABC sports reported the sides are talking. link (http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/sports/06302005_sp_owenstrade.html)
This would be awesome on paper for the Raiders, but Moss did say on ESPN about 3 weeks ago that Owens is not even in the same league as him. Could they co-exist?
As a Raider's fan though, this is certainly intriguing.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

As I said in the original, misplaced thread:

Are they going to change their name to The Trainwreck as well?

[tech]

Surely the Eagles would not do something that stupid.

[Soul Daddy]

Given Porter's reasonable contract, the possibility of Owens sitting out, and the likelihood that Owens is cut after this season make it seem not so stupid to me. Sure, it's a significant talent dropoff, but they're not gonna get equal value.

Anyone know the exact cap ramifications? Would the Eagles be responsible for Porter's signing bonus?

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
Surely the Eagles would not do something that stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i'm the eagles, i get what i can for T.O. he's thisclose to being an addition by subtraction case.

[tech]

I guess the reason I am surprised is that I am not high on Porter at all. He has never really performed up to expectations. There is no way that he can come even remotely close to doing for the Eagles what Owens did.

[sublime]

he is a fcuking retard and i should bump the posts from last years super bowl to make the people who called him a team player etc look silly.

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]
Given Porter's reasonable contract, the possibility of Owens sitting out, and the likelihood that Owens is cut after this season make it seem not so stupid to me. Sure, it's a significant talent dropoff, but they're not gonna get equal value.

Anyone know the exact cap ramifications? Would the Eagles be responsible for Porter's signing bonus?

[/ QUOTE ]

Porter's entire seven year contract would be accelerated -- not the salary itself, but all the bonuses.

The Eagles would be able to pay about three other players.

[tech]

[ QUOTE ]
he is a fcuking retard

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, without question. But the man can play.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
he is a fcuking retard

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, without question. But the man can play.

[/ QUOTE ]

for sure, i just dont see why any team would want to deal with him after his last two offseasons.

[Boris]

so you prefer kissing corporate butt and "saying the right things" to actual self sacrifice and outstanding execution?

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
so you prefer kissing corporate butt and "saying the right things" to actual self sacrifice and outstanding execution?

[/ QUOTE ]

i prefer somebody who shows up for work when he signed a contract saying he would do so.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, without question. But the man can play.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would trade him in for someone who has a little less individual game but isn't a cancer. one man's individual stats don't win the superbowl.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
he is a fcuking retard and i should bump the posts from last years super bowl to make the people who called him a team player etc look silly.

[/ QUOTE ]DO IT!!!!!


<hopes he didn't say anything>

FWIW, I hate TO with a passion.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
Given Porter's reasonable contract, the possibility of Owens sitting out, and the likelihood that Owens is cut after this season make it seem not so stupid to me. Sure, it's a significant talent dropoff, but they're not gonna get equal value.

Anyone know the exact cap ramifications? Would the Eagles be responsible for Porter's signing bonus?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a player is traded, the entire signing bonus is accelerated and the team that signed him has to pay it to him all right then. If the accelerated money puts a team over the cap, the trade cannot happen.

The Eagles would not have to pay any of Porter's signing bonus. They would have to pay all of TO's signing bonus from his current contract.

[scott8]

I find it funny when people post that this trade cannot happen. I imagine it going down something like this:

Raiders GM: We want Owens

Eagles GM: We want Porter

Raiders GM: Wait, I know we have been talking and these talks have now leaked to the media, but I just read on 2+2 that financially it wouldn't work.

Eagles GM: Oh, we should have looked into that.

[BadBoyBenny]

If this happens, Kerry Collins is going to dominate the fantasy football leagues.

Crappy defense always playing from behind, Moss and Owens, a good receiving back. Sounds like they would be in a lot of games where both teams score 30+

[holeplug]

I would be surprised if this happened. The Eagles knew he was gonna be a problem when they signed him b/c they structed his contract so that after 2 seasons they could cut him and have almost no cap hit against them. I think they will put up with all his antics this season and try to win a Super Bowl with him since they are close in terms of talent and then just let him go next season.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
If this happens, Kerry Collins is going to dominate the fantasy football leagues.

Crappy defense always playing from behind, Moss and Owens, a good receiving back. Sounds like they would be in a lot of games where both teams score 30+

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously, I was gonna put him as a top 3 QB before this thing started, and now he's gonna be better.

I think if it goes through, it will be so awesome. It will either be the most dysfunctional thing ever or the most fantastic ever, either way it will pwn.

[The Armchair]

Collins at 3 is high even if he had god as a wide receiver, because if they aren't winning, Andrew Walter may get a start or three.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny when people post that this trade cannot happen. I imagine it going down something like this:

Raiders GM: We want Owens

Eagles GM: We want Porter

Raiders GM: Wait, I know we have been talking and these talks have now leaked to the media, but I just read on 2+2 that financially it wouldn't work.

Eagles GM: Oh, we should have looked into that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say the trade couldn't happen. I simply pointed out the NFL rule that states if the accelerated bonus money puts a team over the cap, the league will void the trade. I don't know what Porter's contract is and I don't care. Someone asked a question and I answered it.

Creative post but you missed the point and put words in my mouth. Nice job.

Also, if you don't realize that many of the trades bandied about in the media are impossible, especially in the NBA, which has a more complicated trading system, you're just misinformed and gullible.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
Collins at 3 is high even if he had god as a wide receiver, because if they aren't winning, Andrew Walter may get a start or three.

[/ QUOTE ]

Culpepper isn't much better than Collins and Collins has a better core than Culpepper had. Lots and lots and lots of throwing TDs and yards.

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Collins at 3 is high even if he had god as a wide receiver, because if they aren't winning, Andrew Walter may get a start or three.

[/ QUOTE ]

Culpepper isn't much better than Collins and Collins has a better core than Culpepper had. Lots and lots and lots of throwing TDs and yards.

[/ QUOTE ]

My research has Culpepper falling to the same level of McNabb and Brady (using non-fantasy stats) -- in other words, from the clear #2 to a not-so-clear #2. Culpepper is truly a great QB.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Collins at 3 is high even if he had god as a wide receiver, because if they aren't winning, Andrew Walter may get a start or three.

[/ QUOTE ]

Culpepper isn't much better than Collins and Collins has a better core than Culpepper had. Lots and lots and lots of throwing TDs and yards.

[/ QUOTE ]

My research has Culpepper falling to the same level of McNabb and Brady (using non-fantasy stats) -- in other words, from the clear #2 to a not-so-clear #2. Culpepper is truly a great QB.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't disagree any more. Every QB Moss ever had was amazing and Dante was not good with Moss gone. I think Collins could be the 2nd best QB next year.

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]


I couldn't disagree any more. Every QB Moss ever had was amazing and Dante was not good with Moss gone. I think Collins could be the 2nd best QB next year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I promised my editor I'd not publish my findings until after another article came out, so if you can wait a month, I'll show that you are wrong about Daunte. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I couldn't disagree any more. Every QB Moss ever had was amazing and Dante was not good with Moss gone. I think Collins could be the 2nd best QB next year.

[/ QUOTE ]

I promised my editor I'd not publish my findings until after another article came out, so if you can wait a month, I'll show that you are wrong about Daunte. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, I'm looking forward to it. What do you write for?

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]

Okay, I'm looking forward to it. What do you write for?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm contributing to Pro Football Prospectus 2005 (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/book.php).

[scott8]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny when people post that this trade cannot happen. I imagine it going down something like this:

Raiders GM: We want Owens

Eagles GM: We want Porter

Raiders GM: Wait, I know we have been talking and these talks have now leaked to the media, but I just read on 2+2 that financially it wouldn't work.

Eagles GM: Oh, we should have looked into that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say the trade couldn't happen. I simply pointed out the NFL rule that states if the accelerated bonus money puts a team over the cap, the league will void the trade. I don't know what Porter's contract is and I don't care. Someone asked a question and I answered it.

Creative post but you missed the point and put words in my mouth. Nice job.

Also, if you don't realize that many of the trades bandied about in the media are impossible, especially in the NBA, which has a more complicated trading system, you're just misinformed and gullible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the compliment.
And I may be a lot of things, but gullible isn't one of them.
FWIW, I did misread your post.

[Soul Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given Porter's reasonable contract, the possibility of Owens sitting out, and the likelihood that Owens is cut after this season make it seem not so stupid to me. Sure, it's a significant talent dropoff, but they're not gonna get equal value.

Anyone know the exact cap ramifications? Would the Eagles be responsible for Porter's signing bonus?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a player is traded, the entire signing bonus is accelerated and the team that signed him has to pay it to him all right then. If the accelerated money puts a team over the cap, the trade cannot happen.

The Eagles would not have to pay any of Porter's signing bonus. They would have to pay all of TO's signing bonus from his current contract.

[/ QUOTE ]
From what I can gather, TO has already received his bonus of $9.8M. His beef with his contract stems from the lack of guaranteed money from here on, as he is guaranteed a scant $1M this year and the rest of the contract is backloaded. So the Eagles' part of the deal regarding the cap should not be an obstacle. No clue about the Raiders.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Given Porter's reasonable contract, the possibility of Owens sitting out, and the likelihood that Owens is cut after this season make it seem not so stupid to me. Sure, it's a significant talent dropoff, but they're not gonna get equal value.

Anyone know the exact cap ramifications? Would the Eagles be responsible for Porter's signing bonus?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a player is traded, the entire signing bonus is accelerated and the team that signed him has to pay it to him all right then. If the accelerated money puts a team over the cap, the trade cannot happen.

The Eagles would not have to pay any of Porter's signing bonus. They would have to pay all of TO's signing bonus from his current contract.

[/ QUOTE ]
From what I can gather, TO has already received his bonus of $9.8M. His beef with his contract stems from the lack of guaranteed money from here on, as he is guaranteed a scant $1M this year and the rest of the contract is backloaded. So the Eagles' part of the deal regarding the cap should not be an obstacle. No clue about the Raiders.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bonus money is spread out over the length of a contract, but it is guaranteed. For instance, I sign a 5 year deal for 20 million with 5 mil as a signing bonus. Each year of the deal I get 1 mil in bonus money plus whatever my salary is. After year 1 I get traded so the remaining 4 mil of bonus money is accelerated and counts against my old teams salary cap. My new team only has to pay the remainder of my salary minus the bonus money.

So basically whatever bonus money Porter and TO have on their contracts would count against the cap, which could be a lot depending upon how much they got in bonus $. I also believe that since it is past June 1st the cap hit wouldn't actually affect the teams this year but next year which means the trade is possible, though costly since it would take up so much cap space next year. In the NFL that is called dead money since it just takes up cap space with no player producing on the field. Dead money kills NFL teams.

As you can see, signing bonuses are huge for both players and teams because it is the only guaranteed money in the NFL and teams can really screw themselves when they are forced to trade people. TO has a legitimate case IMO because of the rules.

[Soul Daddy]

Is it automatically spread over the life of the contract? Can a team that projects itself to be well under the cap, as the Eagles were for at least '02 and '03, just fork over the entire bonus, or a large portion up front to prevent handcuffing themselves to a player?

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it automatically spread over the life of the contract? Can a team that projects itself to be well under the cap, as the Eagles were for at least '02 and '03, just fork over the entire bonus, or a large portion up front to prevent handcuffing themselves to a player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, it automatically applies to the life of the deal, and also in equal amounts. 5 yr deal 10 mil in bonus, 2 mil per year. The players salaries can rise per year, hence the massive backloaded contracts, but the signing bonus is the same every year. Most 5-7 year deals are really 3-4 year deals that are either ended via release or trade or renegotiated so that teams don't have massive 15 million dollar contracts to pay. If a player renegotiates, the bonus from the previous contract still applies and any new bonus is also added on, but the players yearly salary is changed to help the team stay under the cap. It's all quite convoluted.

Also, you can see why TO and other players are pissed since the contracts are basically meaningless and you can get cut at any time and team only has to pay the bonus money; the rest of the money is void. Players want huge bonuses to make up for that, teams don't want to give them out in case the player is a bust, production drops off, demands trade, noncareer ending injury, etc..

[ComeOn]

[ QUOTE ]
Bonus money is spread out over the length of a contract, but it is guaranteed. For instance, I sign a 5 year deal for 20 million with 5 mil as a signing bonus. Each year of the deal I get 1 mil in bonus money plus whatever my salary is. After year 1 I get traded so the remaining 4 mil of bonus money is accelerated and counts against my old teams salary cap. My new team only has to pay the remainder of my salary minus the bonus money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to clarify, I believe the player actually receives the full signing bonus at the time he signs the contract. The bonus is spread over the life of the contract for salary cap purposes only.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
Just to clarify, I believe the player actually receives the full signing bonus at the time he signs the contract. The bonus is spread over the life of the contract for salary cap purposes only.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's correct. Not sure why I made that mistake.

[Boris]

I would agree if it was a binding contract. NFL contracts are nothing more than options for a team to hire players. The Eagles have no obligation to pay TO so the way I see it TO has no obligation to show up for work.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I would agree if it was a binding contract. NFL contracts are nothing more than options for a team to hire players. The Eagles have no obligation to pay TO so the way I see it TO has no obligation to show up for work.

[/ QUOTE ]

cmon man, you really don't believe that. even if you do, these players (and their agents) are well aware how NFL contracts work and get as much guaranteed money as possible. its not like this is something new.

lets look at what TO has done in the past year and a half:

-missed filing for free agency
-demands trade
-says he wont report to teams he was traded too (screwing both teams)
-signs a deal with the eagles, that was very fair.
-uses a good season to demand more money

screw him. most players who hold out for a new contract are either doing it after a BREAKOUT season or at the tail end of a rookie deal (richard seymour for example). TO falls into neither of these categories.

he is trash

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Is it automatically spread over the life of the contract? Can a team that projects itself to be well under the cap, as the Eagles were for at least '02 and '03, just fork over the entire bonus, or a large portion up front to prevent handcuffing themselves to a player?

[/ QUOTE ]

They can assign the money to the current year, but then it's not a signing bonus. The Vikings have done this the past few years (like with Antoine Winfield's approx $10m bonus) in order to get their payroll up to the minimum, and it's usually called a roster bonus (or something similar)

[Bulldog]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you don't realize that many of the trades bandied about in the media are impossible, especially in the NBA, which has a more complicated trading system, you're just misinformed and gullible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not anymore. Trading became a lot easier in the NBA as of today.

[CollinEstes]

You never know what is going to happen in the NFL or which team will be a surprise. That is why people like it so much because every year people go into the season and they know their team has a legit shot at it because pretty much every team does. You can say the same thing about any other league.

Don't know if this trade will happen but it would be pretty dam entertaining if it does.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
cmon man, you really don't believe that.

[/ QUOTE ]

How could I not believe it? It's the way NFL contracts work.

[ QUOTE ]
-missed filing for free agency

[/ QUOTE ]
The agent missed the filing deadline, not TO. In my business the lawyer would probably be fired and sued for malpractice if they did something like this. Also, courts and arbritrators will, in general, bend over backwards to make things right for the injured party when a filing deadline is missed becuase of human error.

[ QUOTE ]
-uses a good season to demand more money

[/ QUOTE ]

This criticism is especially ridiculous. Do you have any experience at all in the "real world"? Everybody does this, athlete or not. And if you don't your a sucker.

[sublime]

How could I not believe it? It's the way NFL contracts work.

Actually the player who doesn't show up for work doesn't get paid, so the team has all the power. Its the way it is, and Owens knew that before he signed his deal. So technically, you are wrong. If the player decides not to show up, he is in violation of his contract and in addition to not getting paid starts to accrue fines for every day he is absent. The team OTOH can void the deal whenever they want. Is it fair? That's a matter open for debate, however its the way it is and has been for a long while.

The agent missed the filing deadline, not TO. In my business the lawyer would probably be fired and sued for malpractice if they did something like this. Also, courts and arbritrators will, in general, bend over backwards to make things right for the injured party when a filing deadline is missed becuase of human error.

Ok. Doesn't really matter anyways, as this is the sole occurrence that his actions didn't really affect anybody else.

This criticism is especially ridiculous. Do you have any experience at all in the "real world"? Everybody does this, athlete or not. And if you don't your a sucker.

Ugh. Here is what I said: screw him. most players who hold out for a new contract are either doing it after a BREAKOUT season or at the tail end of a rookie deal (richard seymour for example). TO falls into neither of these categories.

So, TO was a superstar before he signed his current deal. So he HAD all that in his favor when he signed the deal. he was SUPPOSED to perform like he did last year, it was no surprise. Why should the deal be ripped up after one season when he performed at the level he was being paid for?

If you want to view Owens' actions in such a positive manner, feel free. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Aytumious]

Realistically the players should be angry with the NFLPA since the teams are only operating under the agreed upon guidelines laid out by both groups.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Realistically the players should be angry with the NFLPA since the teams are only operating under the agreed upon guidelines laid out by both groups.

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed. however, one could counter that the NFL has it right and other sports have it wrong.

[wonderwes]

Skip Bayless made this claim to do this trade back when the entire T.O. off season saga began.