call all in with AKs?

[meditate89]

First hand of a 10+1 single table tournament... Someone goes all in, another person calls, you're last to act with AKs. I know calling with AK is generally bad since you're usually a coin flip, but I figured both of these people probably have PP's QQ-22, dominated aces, or dominated kings... I doubt the originally pusher has AA or KK, the caller might, but I'm already holding one of each of them...
Do you think this is a profitable call in the long run or should I just be mucking em?

[zambonidrivr]

fold

[DyessMan89]

Nope, muck em.

[barry111]

I would say muck for two reasons. 1. you will more likley see two high pairs clash. 2. you will see what kind of hands the players will push with.

[meditate89]

They turned over QQ and TT.. would it be profitable to call if i KNEW those were going to be their hands?

[barry111]

you can fool around with the suits, but I guess your answer is no.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1058960
pokenum -h as kh - tc ts - qd qc
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Kh 495379 36.14 871109 63.55 4266 0.31 0.362
Ts Tc 240247 17.53 1126241 82.16 4266 0.31 0.176
Qc Qd 630862 46.02 735626 53.67 4266 0.31 0.461

[tshort]

It would be +EV slightly (against QQ and TT), but definitely not worth calling there.

[barry111]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be +EV slightly (against QQ and TT), but definitely not worth calling there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does this not show that it would be -EV to call here?

pokenum -h as kh - tc ts - qd qc
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards EV
As Kh 0.362
Ts Tc 0.176
Qc Qd 0.461

[Meatmaw]

[ QUOTE ]
pokenum -h as kh - tc ts - qd qc
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards EV
As Kh 0.362
Ts Tc 0.176
Qc Qd 0.461

[/ QUOTE ]
considering your pot odds, that's better than if you were facing one opponent with an underpair. As it stands, with AK, the more opponents you are facing (w/o any A or K), the better off you are, i.e. your odds are even better with AK versus 6 other players, all with underpairs.

I noticed AK v TT and AQ, for instance is like 36% or something better than 1/3 chance. Does this imply that if you *knew* no one had AA or KK that you are actually +EV here to go all in? It seems all cases where no one has AA or KK against you put you at better than at least a AK v underpair case. Not saying you want to be in that since there's something to be said for outplaying, but just asking if all these cases are better, as they appear to me.

[ir0nphist]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be +EV slightly (against QQ and TT), but definitely not worth calling there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does this not show that it would be -EV to call here?

pokenum -h as kh - tc ts - qd qc
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards EV
As Kh 0.362
Ts Tc 0.176
Qc Qd 0.461

[/ QUOTE ]


Getting 2:1 on the call you would need to have at least 33% pot equity here to be correct. So w/ 36.2% it technically would be correct to call here if you knew you were against QQ/TT. Right?

[microbet]

It would be correct to call in a cash game or a winner take all tournament, but not in the standard 5-3-2 payout tournament (IMO).

It wouldn't be catastrophically bad or anything though.

[rydazzle]

[ QUOTE ]
I know calling with AK is generally bad since you're usually a coin flip

[/ QUOTE ]

Careful, this is against one opponent...

[rydazzle]

All the simulations I see have AKo, not AKs like OP said. With AKs I get slightly less than 40% (playing around with common suites changes things slightly).

For the question, "...knowing what they had, would this be a correct call...": You are getting 2:1 (plus blinds) on your money and 1.5:1 on your cards. According to TOP, you made a mistake by not calling.

However, not knowing the players cards you have to assign weight to possible AA and KK, lower pairs, high cards and a bluff (since you have no info on players, 1st hand dealt right?)...this way you might come out break-even (or less) which would make your fold correct.

I would have folded with ZERO regrets, peg that moron as a fish and wait for a better chance /images/graemlins/wink.gif