blind call

[bicyclekick]

Sb just busted so there is no sb on the hand.

Good button raises, you have j5o in the bb, is calling pretty bad or is it fine liberal blind defense?

[elysium]

hi bike

it's better to reraise than call, IMO. there is a reasonable chance that you will be able to foldout this type opponent unimproved, and reraising in this spot will assist in that eventuality. if you were a little stronger like J9o, perhaps J8, then calling works out better because you might pick-up a draw relying not only on getting the fold, but also your outs. IMO, this is a must reraise pre-flop. most good players, however, will usually just call in this spot.

[bicyclekick]

3 bet j5o? what?

[Schneids]

Elysium I would be a happy man if you responded to each and every future post I make.

[Philuva]

I love this post but hate the "just call with ATo on the button after it has been folded to a CO poster who just checks" post.

[Jeffage]

I would just fold this. How off could that be?

Jeff

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
I would just fold this. How off could that be?

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my thinking.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

it's better to reraise than call, IMO. there is a reasonable chance that you will be able to foldout this type opponent unimproved, and reraising in this spot will assist in that eventuality.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. That said, I'm folding this 999 times out of 1,000 and 3-betting it once. And I'm saving that once for when button is BK.

[ QUOTE ]
most good players, however, will usually just call in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this, however, I disagree. IMO most good players dump this.

[SL__72]

Would that 3-bet be for value?

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would just fold this. How off could that be?

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]
Mine too. Unless I'm too dense or still operating on the level of mere mortals to understand three-betting with this junk, I'm speed-mucking it.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Would that 3-bet be for value?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, it would be cuz BK could have any 2 cards, and like Elysium initially stated, it would allow me to move him off a better hand on a later street.

[Luke]

Calling is certainly not "pretty bad" but I'd probably fold and start calling with J7o.

Luke

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
hi bike

it's better to reraise than call, IMO. there is a reasonable chance that you will be able to foldout this type opponent unimproved, and reraising in this spot will assist in that eventuality. if you were a little stronger like J9o, perhaps J8, then calling works out better because you might pick-up a draw relying not only on getting the fold, but also your outs. IMO, this is a must reraise pre-flop. most good players, however, will usually just call in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think 3-betting in a situation like this highly depends on the tendancy of the button player to steal. The more the button will do this, the more I will aggressively defend the big blind with a 3 bet with most garbage hands like J-5o to put pressure back on him. There's a lot of leveraging power here that many people fail to realize.

What I am trying and failing to understand is how you see calling with a hand like J-9 or J-8 as opposed to raising? Sure you can pick up an extra straight draw, but that draw itself has such little value HU. I'd still like to go for a 3-bet against a typical aggressive stealer with most of my holdings.

Lawrence

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
I would just fold this. How off could that be?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not off at all provided you can't play a good HU post flop game. Most players, well the ones I play live with anyways, can't.

Lawrence

[Jeffage]

Is this really called for? The hand is EV Neutral AT BEST. It's a simple fact that it can't cost you to fold an EV Neutral hand out of position. And I believe that the vast majority of players will find playing this out of the blind to a raise will cost them money in the longrun. But hey, if insulting my postflop game makes you feel better, that's fine. I feel like the fold is very solid.

Jeff

[elysium]

hi lawrence

this situation is highly dependent upon opponent knowledge....like of course. bike has a good opponent on the button. when all is said and done, bike will usually have a better hand than the button, if the button is good. and i have no reason to doubt this.

we know what this good playing button doesn't have. he certainly doesn't have ATo. he has, instead, a raising hand; a real piece of chit. and since he's a good player, he has his butt crunched up real tight like, hoping bike will fold. bike is more than likely leading and does have a value reraise. but at no time does bike have the option to fold. bike's JX is a formidable hand in this particular spot.

if bike is up against almost any other type opponent, including an aggressive opponent who doesn't play well, now bike should not make the reraise but rather he should fold. the hyper-aggressive will not respond correctly when bike reraises, but the good opponent will. the maniac and the fish will also have a hand that is slightly better to much better than bike's.

you fold JX in this spot against a maniac; you reraise JX in this spot against a good playing opponent whose raises in on the button. fold also to the fish.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
hi lawrence

this situation is highly dependent upon opponent knowledge....like of course. bike has a good opponent on the button. when all is said and done, bike will usually have a better hand than the button, if the button is good. and i have no reason to doubt this.

we know what this good playing button doesn't have. he certainly doesn't have ATo. he has, instead, a raising hand; a real piece of chit. and since he's a good player, he has his butt crunched up real tight like, hoping bike will fold. bike is more than likely leading and does have a value reraise. but at no time does bike have the option to fold. bike's JX is a formidable hand in this particular spot.

if bike is up against almost any other type opponent, including an aggressive opponent who doesn't play well, now bike should not make the reraise but rather he should fold. the hyper-aggressive will not respond correctly when bike reraises, but the good opponent will. the maniac and the fish will also have a hand that is slightly better to much better than bike's.

you fold JX in this spot against a maniac; you reraise JX in this spot against a good playing opponent whose raises in on the button. fold also to the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best post I've read on two plus two in months. Great [censored] post man.

[Trix]

[ QUOTE ]
we know what this good playing button doesn't have. he certainly doesn't have ATo. he has, instead, a raising hand; a real piece of chit. and since he's a good player, he has his butt crunched up real tight like, hoping bike will fold. bike is more than likely leading and does have a value reraise. but at no time does bike have the option to fold. bike's JX is a formidable hand in this particular spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think his range is wide, but I dont see why it wont include good hands like ATo and such.

Are you saying that he should be limping with those ?

I would fold, but I agree that raising is better than calling.

[Subfallen]

Yeah, elysium had a post about limping on the button with KQ shorthanded...I hope he talks more about this as well.

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this really called for? The hand is EV Neutral AT BEST. It's a simple fact that it can't cost you to fold an EV Neutral hand out of position. And I believe that the vast majority of players will find playing this out of the blind to a raise will cost them money in the longrun. But hey, if insulting my postflop game makes you feel better, that's fine. I feel like the fold is very solid.

Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Jeff, I never meant any intention to insult your postflop game. The statement I made was a general remark to the players I am usually up against. I just meant to state that in live games I play in, most players do not play correctly post flop which is why I believe 3-betting often in the BB has some merit.

My apologies if it came off rude.

Lawrence

[Lawrence Ng]

[ QUOTE ]
we know what this good playing button doesn't have. he certainly doesn't have ATo. he has, instead, a raising hand; a real piece of chit. and since he's a good player, he has his butt crunched up real tight like, hoping bike will fold. bike is more than likely leading and does have a value reraise. but at no time does bike have the option to fold. bike's JX is a formidable hand in this particular spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never thought of this way, but the more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

[ QUOTE ]

if bike is up against almost any other type opponent, including an aggressive opponent who doesn't play well, now bike should not make the reraise but rather he should fold. the hyper-aggressive will not respond correctly when bike reraises, but the good opponent will. the maniac and the fish will also have a hand that is slightly better to much better than bike's.

[/ QUOTE ]

Elysium, this part here is definitely gold. Thank you.

Lawrence

[Paluka]

I think if you have a hand so bad that raising is better than calling, than folding can't be very wrong.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hi lawrence

this situation is highly dependent upon opponent knowledge....like of course. bike has a good opponent on the button. when all is said and done, bike will usually have a better hand than the button, if the button is good. and i have no reason to doubt this.

we know what this good playing button doesn't have. he certainly doesn't have ATo. he has, instead, a raising hand; a real piece of chit. and since he's a good player, he has his butt crunched up real tight like, hoping bike will fold. bike is more than likely leading and does have a value reraise. but at no time does bike have the option to fold. bike's JX is a formidable hand in this particular spot.

if bike is up against almost any other type opponent, including an aggressive opponent who doesn't play well, now bike should not make the reraise but rather he should fold. the hyper-aggressive will not respond correctly when bike reraises, but the good opponent will. the maniac and the fish will also have a hand that is slightly better to much better than bike's.

you fold JX in this spot against a maniac; you reraise JX in this spot against a good playing opponent whose raises in on the button. fold also to the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best post I've read on two plus two in months. Great [censored] post man.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys and your superlatives.

Like many of elysium's posts, this has some good nuggets along with some statements that are most likely patently wrong. Not sure what about it you think is so great, but I don't see how a post that makes some very sketchy and probably flawed assumptions can't be all that great.

[ggbman]

In my opinion, this is very situation dependant. How is your image at the table? Is the button the type that will play back at you if he thinks you have missed the flop. Does he fold flops here UI or does he peel one off? These are key factors into the thought process here. I like the argument that was made for playing this hand against a good player and not a maniac. I also think the comment that he always has crap here is off. He could very eaily have crap, and he also could have picked up any pair or any two broadways and doen what any of us would have done, raised. IMO, this is a situation where you need to vary you play.

[esspo]

I fold. And its not even close imo.

[andyfox]

It's definitely liberal, especially since there's no small blind dead money in the pot, but, IMHO, not fine. As those of you who participate on the Politics forum know, I'm certainly a liberal, but playing J-5 against a good player out of position is a recipe for disaster for me. Were I to 3-bet, as some have suggested should be done, I would consider that I had committed the dreaded Crime Against Humanity.

Anybody remember what hand grouping J-5o was in?

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
It's definitely liberal, especially since there's no small blind dead money in the pot, but, IMHO, not fine. As those of you who participate on the Politics forum know, I'm certainly a liberal, but playing J-5 against a good player out of position is a recipe for disaster for me. Were I to 3-bet, as some have suggested should be done, I would consider that I had committed the dreaded Crime Against Humanity.

Anybody remember what hand grouping J-5o was in?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't recall J5o being in any of the hand groupings, not even group 8, so Sklansky must have considered it basically unplayable.

[ResidentParanoid]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you have a hand so bad that raising is better than calling, than folding can't be very wrong.


[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis...

[flub]

Would you normally play J5 from the BB against steal if SB folded? Q6 is as low as I normally go and I'd be more inclined to fold w/o SB dead money.

-f

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hi lawrence

this situation is highly dependent upon opponent knowledge....like of course. bike has a good opponent on the button. when all is said and done, bike will usually have a better hand than the button, if the button is good. and i have no reason to doubt this.

we know what this good playing button doesn't have. he certainly doesn't have ATo. he has, instead, a raising hand; a real piece of chit. and since he's a good player, he has his butt crunched up real tight like, hoping bike will fold. bike is more than likely leading and does have a value reraise. but at no time does bike have the option to fold. bike's JX is a formidable hand in this particular spot.

if bike is up against almost any other type opponent, including an aggressive opponent who doesn't play well, now bike should not make the reraise but rather he should fold. the hyper-aggressive will not respond correctly when bike reraises, but the good opponent will. the maniac and the fish will also have a hand that is slightly better to much better than bike's.

you fold JX in this spot against a maniac; you reraise JX in this spot against a good playing opponent whose raises in on the button. fold also to the fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the best post I've read on two plus two in months. Great [censored] post man.

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys and your superlatives.

Like many of elysium's posts, this has some good nuggets along with some statements that are most likely patently wrong. Not sure what about it you think is so great, but I don't see how a post that makes some very sketchy and probably flawed assumptions can't be all that great.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah...i'm afraid i'm inclined to agree. i have a problem with "when all is said and done, bike will usually have a better hand than the button, if the button is good." juxtaposed to "[i]if you were a little stronger like J9o, perhaps J8, then calling works out better because you might pick-up a draw relying not only on getting the fold, but also your outs."

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody remember what hand grouping J-5o was in?

[/ QUOTE ]
We're way beyond hand groupings here.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Like many of elysium's posts, this has some good nuggets along with some statements that are most likely patently wrong. Not sure what about it you think is so great, but I don't see how a post that makes some very sketchy and probably flawed assumptions can't be all that great.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops. That should say "but I don't see how a post that makes some very sketchy and probably flawed assumptions can be all that great."

[elysium]

hi jeff

the fold is solid if you are inexperienced with heads-up play. there are also a lot of very good players who wouldn't make the reraise. however, you already have invested in the hand. the button isn't raising through a SB to get your fold, he needs only to foldout you. your hand, JX, is probably in the lead pre-flop. it's better than 50-50 though once you reraise since you now have a good chance to foldout the button. put a SB in there, and you must fold since the button is raising not only you, but also the SB. so pot odds has nothing to do with your reraise. the reraise is made because the button's steal-raise doesn't mean anything. he's just stealing your blind, that's all he's doing. you must reraise this opponent with your paint X.

[shmahappens]

How can it be a 'must reraise' if you say 'most good players will just call'. Don't you try and emulate them?

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you have a hand so bad that raising is better than calling, than folding can't be very wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

That says it all.

[Net Warrior]

Fold and move on. If the button is stealing too much, wait for a better hand to attack with.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
Would that 3-bet be for value?

[/ QUOTE ]

No it is to win the hand.