How much do the top pros make from Tourneys?

[Kenny Z]

I just saw the latest Cardplayer and their Cardplayer player's of the year. The list on some of them how many final tables they made and how much they made from the final tables...but to me, that is very incomplete information. There's also all the tourneys that they made where they got busted out out-of-the-money.

My question is this : Given a good year by a good tournmanet specialist, say for example, a guy like Huck Seed who was 8th in the Cardplayer of the Year. They list that he made 14 final tables and won $224,961 at these final tables...but how much did he lose in other tourneys and thus what was his net gain for the year from tourneys alone?

My thinking is that these top 10, top 20 guys....alhtough they have some big paydays, on average, they would expect to "only" make 100,000 a year from tourneys. That is a very respectable living, but after taxes and everything, its surprisingly low for someone who is expected to be in the top 10/20 of their industry.

2 questions : 1. is it worth it? 2. is my numbers on the mark or am i way off?

[Greg (FossilMan)]

It's pretty much impossible to say unless you're one of those regulars on tour, and you know what everyone else is doing. Personally, I have no idea how many events Huck entered, nor how many he paid for personally as opposed to being staked for all or a portion. If his wins tended to come when he was staked, and his losses when he wasn't, then he could easily have had a losing year despite being #8 in the rankings.

Conversely, he might have tended to win when on his own money, and therefore much of that $200K could be profit.

I would expect that the truly great touring tournament pros make at least $100K on average. But this is no more than a dozen guys. Of course, the ones that aren't 1-trick ponies also generate a profit from their cash game play between tourneys. And it's often said that in terms of long-term profits, it's the cash game players who follow the tourneys that have the best earn.

But I'm not sure. I only see these folks at Foxwoods and the WSOP. I don't know what they're doing when they're in LA and such the rest of the year.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[sam h]

Those tournament players incur a lot of expenses along the way - a lot of airfare, hotel rooms, and eating out. You really have to be quite a bit better than the field in the tourneys you are playing to still have a substantial profit margin after these expenses are added to the house´s take.

I don´t know from personal experience, but from what I have read and gleaned from people in the poker world, the best way to make a living is in higher stakes cash games, and this is where many of the best players in the world ply their trade rather than tournaments. While some top tourney players augment their winnings in these cash games, there are many who lose their shirts to relatively unknown cash players who outclass them in ring games.

[Bozeman]

It's not unreasonable to guess that if you take out the few million dollar wins, these top 30 are paying around half or more of what they win in entry fees.

[Erik S]

I think you guys have a good feel for what the top players make. Very few players can be counted on to make money year in & year out. The top players rate to make 100 to 300k a year in tournaments & once in a while will hit a Lotto ticket with a big payout. Some of these guys are rated highly just because they play so many events. I would really like to see points subtracted for each event entered. Player of the Year has really become a contest where a couple of players are really playing with a stacked deck because they play so many more events then anyone else. That said, I think the top players on last years list were listed pretty accurately. A few people could have been switched around, but the best players did a lot of damage last year.-Erik Seidel

[ohkanada]

I do agree that the player of the year should factor in tournies entered. Probably won't happen since that information is not easily available.

Ken Poklitar

[Kenny Z]

Thanks for your reply Erik. Don't get me wrong, I respect the people who play tournaments...I respect them alot. Every event is grueling, 10+ hours playing the same game, when one mistake could get you tossed out, its an endurance contest as well.

I think your suggestion of deducting points is a great idea. I would think you have some contact with the people of Cardplayer, I wonder how they would respond to that suggestion.

Anyway, good luck, and thanks for the response!