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Dr_Jeckyl_00

06-30-2005, 09:46 AM

Lost 4 games last night (I think 3 of 4 losses due to bad play). Played my usual tight game early, tried to steal when blinds increased. Some hands I think I played correctly, some were definitely wrong, IMO. Please share your thoughts.

Game 1 - Consistently having trouble playing KQs (& other high suited connectors)...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t265)
UTG+2 (t1075)
Hero (t790)
MP2 (t1130)
MP3 (t545)
CO (t985)
Button (t1385)
SB (t1200)
BB (t380)
UTG (t245)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t30, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls t30, Hero calls t30, 3 folds, Button calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t180) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB bets t60, UTG calls t60, UTG+2 calls t60, Hero raises to t760 (All-In), Button folds, SB folds, BB calls t290 (All-In), UTG calls t155 (All-In), UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (t1565) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, 3 all-in)

River: (t1565) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players, 3 all-in)

Final Pot: t1565

Hand 2 - Forced this as result of previous hand...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP3 (t175)
CO (t895)
Hero (t365)
SB (t1205)
BB (t545)
UTG (t925)
UTG+1 (t1535)
MP1 (t1215)
MP2 (t1140)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
5 folds, CO calls t30, Hero raises to t365 (All-In), 2 folds, CO calls t335.

Flop: (t775) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t775) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t775) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t775

Game 2 - Probably should have checked, folded, but tried to steal... poor risk-return in hind sight...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t940)
UTG (t925)
MP (t685)
CO (t630)
Button (t2300)
SB (t2520)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, MP calls t100, 2 folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t300) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t840 (All-In), MP calls t585 (All-In), SB folds.

Turn: (t1725) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t1725) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t1725

Game 3 - This seems correct...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1255)
BB (t1155)
Hero (t800)
MP1 (t2645)
MP2 (t825)
CO (t435)
Button (t885)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero raises to t800 (All-In), MP1 calls t800, 5 folds.

Flop: (t1825) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1825) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1825) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1825

Game 4
Hand 1 - Should have pushed here...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t490)
BB (t1750)
UTG (t1385)
MP1 (t470)
MP2 (t1465)
CO (t1865)
Button (t575)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
4 folds, Button calls t50, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (t125) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Button bets t125, BB folds.

Final Pot: t250

Hand 2 - Should have folded...

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t465)
SB (t1700)
BB (t1385)
UTG (t470)
MP1 (t1465)
MP2 (t1865)
CO (t650)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif.
3 folds, CO calls t100, Hero raises to t465 (All-In), 1 fold, BB calls t365, CO folds.

Flop: (t1080) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: (t1080) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t1080) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t1080

junkmail3

06-30-2005, 10:57 AM

1. KQs - what's the hurry? TPGK, I might raise, but all in? that's just too dangerous.

2. ATo - Fine. I don't mind pushing, short stacked.

3. 95s - Why? Chill out.

4. 66 - UTG ... with 5BB ... ... it's a bit early, but may be alright being that you're on a short stack. but there are a lot of people close to your chip count. I might throw this away actually. I'd rather steal from the CO or Button with a worse hand.

5. Kxs - push preflop if you're playing.

6. 84o ... why? You're getting called.

(judging from this post and others) I think you tend to have trouble later in the tournaments playing a short stack. But, it looks like there is good reason that you have a short stack late.

I think you need to chill earlier on and play better hands and improve your postflop play. I think you're losing too many chips playing marginal hands.

For what it's worth.

Keep posting hands, and don't be discouraged by the fact that many people wouldn't have made 1/2 of the plays you did. You (and I) are here to learn. And I could be way off in my analysis.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

06-30-2005, 11:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I think you need to chill earlier on and play better hands and improve your postflop play. I think you're losing too many chips playing marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I no longer have post flop play. I seem to be folding or pushing. Much of what I read on 2+2 seems to advocate push or fold, and push w/ any 2 while you still have FE (but before you have no FE) and have position... assuming that you're not getting good cards. In these hands I felt that I still had FE (but would not for long), and I had position. If I don't make a move soon I will lose my FE and blind out, unless I get some good cards (and action... I had gotten AA, QQ, AK earlier, but everyone folded to my 3xbb bet). I used to blind out, now I get called out on my steal attemps. My 'see flop %' is typically 10%-20% L1-4 so I play tight... but I guess maybe choosing to push w/ position is not as good as pushing OOP w/ somewhat better hands. Thanks for you advice.

wrongshui

06-30-2005, 11:40 AM

I don't like the all in with the kq... in 11s, people wont drop their open endeds or flush draws as easily as in 30s+.
Blinds are low, a decent sized reraise will let you know where you're at on the turn.

95, you were still in ok shape, why push? Pick a better spot.

84o... WTF? Don't push with this hand, even on the button, you're going to be drawing dead too much of the time.

Whats ur nick on party if you dont mind me asking? i recognize the username for some reason.

junkmail3

06-30-2005, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I no longer have post flop play. I seem to be folding or pushing. Much of what I read on 2+2 seems to advocate push or fold, and push w/ any 2 while you still have FE (but before you have no FE) and have position

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true but is often over stated. In the situation of 84o, specifically, you came over the top in a situation where, if you hit the BB you would have no FE. However, seeing that CO had called T100, you come over the top for T465, now BB has to call T365 to win T765 (2:1) and can do so with moderate cards. If he folds, CO is in the same situation. And since he's limping, he has something, and that something should be worth 2:1 to continue.

But since BB called, now CO has 3:1, and should call anything.

So, basically, you're pushing in a spot that, with terrible cards, two people should call you, and they did.

So, I would wait until the next hand, and at least get my money in when it's folded to me, or I have an A or K.

[ QUOTE ]
I used to blind out, now I get called out on my steal attemps.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I gather from this post and others is that you could pick your steals in better positions.

[ QUOTE ]

but I guess maybe choosing to push w/ position is not as good as pushing OOP w/ somewhat better hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily true. I would rather open push QJo in late position 7 handed with 6xBB than I would push 55 UTG in the same situation.

pooh74

06-30-2005, 11:50 AM

I stopped after the first hand because this hand shows prefectly a huge leak in your game.

A basic concept you need to nail down is how to change your play based on circumstances. KQs is a good hand and DEFINITELY worthy of a limp here...at a very loose passive table, maybe even a raise to isolate, to mix it up too. But, you limped and had a multiway pot with 6 PLAYERS!! There is no reason to believe you have the best had right now...raise to 180 to see where you stand perhaps...

My major point is, when you limp for 30 with 6 other players, you are not looking for TP any more to get your chips in...now you have to be mUCH more careful because ANYTHING could be out there. IF you raised PF and get one caller, TP2K becomes a great hand. On the bubble, it a pushworthy hand...but not here. You need to adjust to your surroundings and really have to not get overexcited in this situation. You will almost never get called by a worse hand and are risking your tourney on a relatively small pot relative to your stack.

GtrHtr

06-30-2005, 11:51 AM

Hand 1 - fold PF. You are having trouble with suited connected face cards because you shouldn't be playing them at this level. If this is your usual tight play, there's your leak.

Hand 2 - fold PF.

Hand 3 - check fold.

Hand 4 - either way, but I'd fold PF. Your stack is fine, you don't need to make a move here even going into the blinds.

Hand 5 (Kh6h) - fold PF.

Last hand - look at the stack sizes as they relate to you. Now calculate the BB's pot odds for calling you. What is his range for calling? Wait for a hand to double up. Fold PF.

junkmail3

06-30-2005, 11:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 - fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you waiting for with less than 10xBB on the button?

GtrHtr

06-30-2005, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Hand 2 - fold PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you waiting for with less than 10xBB on the button?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2 - Forced this as result of previous hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

He's probably lucky he got called. Its level 2 with 10 players. Do you think he'll get a better hand than A10o in the next 20 hands or so? Is he going to lose a lot of FE in the next 20 hands or so? He needs to double up. Not start pushing every hand.

He needs to double up.

pooh74

06-30-2005, 12:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1 - fold PF. You are having trouble with suited connected face cards because you shouldn't be playing them at this level. If this is your usual tight play, there's your leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this is bad...this is an easy limp...I would go as far to say its a leak not to being playing these hands in good position with so many limpers.

Again...disclaimer...i play with 1500 starting stack.

jeffraider

06-30-2005, 01:42 PM

Hand 1 KQs - I don't mind this that much. You're likely ahead, but the action really indicates that if you do get called you have to dodge a lot of potential bad cards, but I'd think that you were still the favourite even against two opponents. The really good news is the 360 sitting in the pot at the time of your push. That's a good sized overlay, especially if you're only playing against the two shorties. Not too shabby!

Hand 2 ATo - Boooo! You're not "forced" to play this shitty hand for a 12xBB push to steal 75 chips, which won't help you too much. Now that your stuck is chopped you're not desperate, but you are looking for places to be a favourite or at worst a coinflip. ATo isn't a favourite over a lot of the hands that will call, and your best case is a coinflip. I'd be looking for AQ+, 88+ here. Just remind yourself that it'll be very hard to steal your way back to a healthy stack, so you need to be looking to double through someone, not be dominated by someone when they call.

Hand 3 95s - Yeah, just check-fold. You're not desperate enough yet to try this, especially since it looks like a bluff.

Hand 4 66 - No question, good push.

Hand 5 K6s - Just fold preflop. No good reason to play for this pot right now. If you had this hand on the button and two people had limped however. . . PVS!

Hand 6 84o - Boooo. You may steal the pot but there is an extremely high likelyhood you'll be called. This would be better if you could be first in, and you're on the button so just fold and try to be first in with your whole stack.

GtrHtr

06-30-2005, 02:13 PM

I agree in the 1500 starting stack game that this is a routine call with the blinds so low.

With an 800 chip stack to me its just bleeding off precious chips that are very important after we get through the next few levels. I am not against calling if you have the ability to play with some skill post flop and particularly having the ability to lay this hand down if required. However, look at how the hand played out. He had a drawing hand to begin with, and just got sucked deeper and deeper into the hand.

pooh74

06-30-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I agree in the 1500 starting stack game that this is a routine call with the blinds so low.

With an 800 chip stack to me its just bleeding off precious chips that are very important after we get through the next few levels. I am not against calling if you have the ability to play with some skill post flop and particularly having the ability to lay this hand down if required. However, look at how the hand played out. He had a drawing hand to begin with, and just got sucked deeper and deeper into the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I admit with t800 i would need implied odds to hit at least 2pair, (trips, flush/str8 draw) to play this hand...I would not feel comfortable with top pair 6 ways. But like you said, one needs to have some post flop savvy to play this hand because of the propensity to get sucked into a losing hand. My only thing is that players need to play hands like this nonetheless when getting good odds and just because their post-flop skills need work, does not mean they should avoid it...that is backwards IMO.

But I concede the difference in starting stacks being a big deal. calling 30, then raising or calling this flop, and you're looking at AT least a 25% chunk of your starting stack gone w/o knowing where you stand in the hand...not good.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

06-30-2005, 02:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I stopped after the first hand because this hand shows prefectly a huge leak in your game.

A basic concept you need to nail down is how to change your play based on circumstances. KQs is a good hand and DEFINITELY worthy of a limp here...at a very loose passive table, maybe even a raise to isolate, to mix it up too. But, you limped and had a multiway pot with 6 PLAYERS!! There is no reason to believe you have the best had right now...raise to 180 to see where you stand perhaps...

My major point is, when you limp for 30 with 6 other players, you are not looking for TP any more to get your chips in...now you have to be mUCH more careful because ANYTHING could be out there. IF you raised PF and get one caller, TP2K becomes a great hand. On the bubble, it a pushworthy hand...but not here. You need to adjust to your surroundings and really have to not get overexcited in this situation. You will almost never get called by a worse hand and are risking your tourney on a relatively small pot relative to your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, this is good advice. I do get excited, and occasionally act w/o thinking especially if I have TP or better. I need to slow down and put my opponent on a range of hands... every time... as part of my decision making process.

As it turns out one villain was slow playing AA... he lost too, and the other had Q5 from BB and finished w/ a FH.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

06-30-2005, 02:48 PM

The problem with the KQs hand is that even if I bet t180 as you suggest, if they only called my bet then the turn gave me 2 pair... how do you get away from that?... b/c 2 pair was not good enough, so in this specific hand I was potentially doomed unless I folded pre-flop or they raised me on the flop, but I will practice betting to see where I stand when I have tp in a multi-way pot.

pooh74

06-30-2005, 03:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the KQs hand is that even if I bet t180 as you suggest, if they only called my bet then the turn gave me 2 pair... how do you get away from that?... b/c 2 pair was not good enough, so in this specific hand I was potentially doomed unless I folded pre-flop or they raised me on the flop, but I will practice betting to see where I stand when I have tp in a multi-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only meant raising instead of pushing...I wouldnt even raise in that spot and only MIGHT call. with a bet, call, and 3 more to act I would be so afraid of getting tangled up I might cut my losses and fold. This is why some advocate folding this hand PF...I still disagree bc of flops like Kd Ac Tc where for 60 Ill take my chances with so many outs to the BEST hand...but with 800 stacks I am not sure if the amount of good flops for me justify a limp of 30...with 1500 to start, this hand is a no brainer. I dont play party so I am at a loss as to proper early-mid PF play.

However, in any case on the flop, with 6 people in, you really need to be better than top pair to get hyper-agressive.

GtrHtr

06-30-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My only thing is that players need to play hands like this nonetheless when getting good odds and just because their post-flop skills need work, does not mean they should avoid it...that is backwards IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed and good point. I'm just not sure that a Party SnG is the place to gain this skill.

GtrHtr

06-30-2005, 03:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the KQs hand is that even if I bet t180 as you suggest, if they only called my bet then the turn gave me 2 pair... how do you get away from that?... b/c 2 pair was not good enough, so in this specific hand I was potentially doomed unless I folded pre-flop or they raised me on the flop, but I will practice betting to see where I stand when I have tp in a multi-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of it this way. 1. What are you hoping to accomplish by playing this hand? 2. What is a good flop for you if you do play it? 3. What happens if you pair your hand, say the flop is 10h, Qh, 3d? What is your play? 4. Straight possibilities. How often will you have the nut straight, without an A when you play two suited connected face cards.

On and on. Just some food for thought that goes to the point on your thoughts above.

Dr_Jeckyl_00

06-30-2005, 03:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1. What are you hoping to accomplish by playing this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I liked the flop, just not all of the post flop action. I pushed hoping to take it down

[ QUOTE ]
2. What is a good flop for you if you do play it?

[/ QUOTE ] I consider this a good flop... TP w/ overcard kicker. Obviously a better flop would contain 2 cards that give me either a flush/str8 draw, or KQ or 2 K's or 2 Q's

[ QUOTE ]
3. What happens if you pair your hand, say the flop is 10h, Qh, 3d? What is your play?

[/ QUOTE ] I need to bet at least 1/2 pot to give poor odds for drawing hands. I probably need to reserve my pushes for when I have decent hands AND less than 10xbb, the bubble and ITM.

[ QUOTE ]
4. Straight possibilities. How often will you have the nut straight, without an A when you play two suited connected face cards.

[/ QUOTE ] Not sure how to answer this... depends on my hole cards and the board???

pooh74

06-30-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The problem with the KQs hand is that even if I bet t180 as you suggest, if they only called my bet then the turn gave me 2 pair... how do you get away from that?... b/c 2 pair was not good enough, so in this specific hand I was potentially doomed unless I folded pre-flop or they raised me on the flop, but I will practice betting to see where I stand when I have tp in a multi-way pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of it this way. 1. What are you hoping to accomplish by playing this hand? 2. What is a good flop for you if you do play it? 3. What happens if you pair your hand, say the flop is 10h, Qh, 3d? What is your play? 4. Straight possibilities. How often will you have the nut straight, without an A when you play two suited connected face cards.

On and on. Just some food for thought that goes to the point on your thoughts above.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points...Not that I am any sort of pro, but I see and talk to a lot of beginners who as their biggest leak put money into a pot w/o a plan...w/o thinking FIRST, what their objective is...IF x happens, I will Y, If X happens and I Y and Z1 happens, I will...if Z2 happens, I will...

IOW, too many players will let the hand carry them along instead of the opposite. Here, our hero did in fact take control and his plan was apparently "if I hit either of my cards, regardless of the texture of the board and # of opponents, I will get my chips in"...so at least he didnt play the hand weak passively...he just had a bad plan.

GtrHtr

06-30-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. What are you hoping to accomplish by playing this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I liked the flop, just not all of the post flop action. I pushed hoping to take it down

[ QUOTE ]
2. What is a good flop for you if you do play it?

[/ QUOTE ] I consider this a good flop... TP w/ overcard kicker. Obviously a better flop would contain 2 cards that give me either a flush/str8 draw, or KQ or 2 K's or 2 Q's

[ QUOTE ]
3. What happens if you pair your hand, say the flop is 10h, Qh, 3d? What is your play?

[/ QUOTE ] I need to bet at least 1/2 pot to give poor odds for drawing hands. I probably need to reserve my pushes for when I have decent hands AND less than 10xbb, the bubble and ITM.

[ QUOTE ]
4. Straight possibilities. How often will you have the nut straight, without an A when you play two suited connected face cards.

[/ QUOTE ] Not sure how to answer this... depends on my hole cards and the board???

[/ QUOTE ]

Your answers are fine, I was prompting you in planning out your hand before acting not really working you for a response. LoL the last question was more vague but still trying to get you to think through where the hand might go BEFORE you decide to play it.

Good luck in the future.