Dear Atheists/Agnostics....

[CallMeIshmael]

I am a very very very big Woody Allen fan. He is obsessed with three things: God, death and sex.


Throughout his work, it becomes semi obvious that though he is an atheist, he very much wants to NOT be an atheist. He simply cant believe in God without more evidence.



I ask you: does this describe you?


That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence, would you be more content? As content? Would it actually bother you?

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence, would you be more content? As content? Would it actually bother you?

[/ QUOTE ]

more. much more. In fact, I'd be so content that my life would likely lose all meaning... It's a beautiful dream, god and religion... i wish it were true, i honestly do, but i don't think it is. It must be nice to honestly believe without a shread of doubt. must be nice...

[HolyBejeesus]

I would say that it describes everyone on some level. Noone can be positive of the nonexistance of God, so even if you were 99.9% certain that He did not exist, being 100% certain that he did exist would be more contenting.

Personally, I have always been interested in the question, and have never been religious at all. Seeing all the posts about this topic recently has made me want to pursue it more.

PS CORNELL != SCHOOL OF FISH.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]

PS CORNEL != SCHOOL OF FISH.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously the statement is correct as

1. CallMeIshmael is a student there and has it listed as his location.
2. You spelled Cornell wrong. That makes you a fish. Since you're from Ithaca, we have some evidence that Cornell is a school of fish.

[Jman28]

Yes, it describes me, and I would assume many others.

I wonder if learning too much will make my world view less happy. I've learned too much about probability to believe in luck. Sometimes it was fun to believe in luck.

I don't know much about psychology, but I wouldn't want to learn that, say, love and friendship type bonds are really just some very easily explained brain function. Takes the fun out of it a little. You know?

[bronzepiglet]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, I'd be so content that my life would likely lose all meaning...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm kind of curious as to what this means. It seems as if you're saying you'd become complacent, but I wonder what would be lost that had motivated you.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
PS CORNELL != SCHOOL OF FISH.

[/ QUOTE ]


Just to clarify: that is my location (and avatar) because I lost a bet.

(But Im pretty sure you already knew I go there)

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if learning too much will make my world view less happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ironically, the more I learn about science (specifically biology, but some physics as well) the more likely I feel there IS a God.

But, I know this is a rare occurance.

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

PS CORNEL != SCHOOL OF FISH.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously the statement is correct as

1. CallMeIshmael is a student there and has it listed as his location.
2. You spelled Cornell wrong. That makes you a fish. Since you're from Ithaca, we have some evidence that Cornell is a school of fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't really argue with that. But you'd be hard-pressed to find 10 schools with better players than Cornell.

[HolyBejeesus]

Can you elaborate on this? I don't know much about biology, but as I learned more about math, logic and the natural order over the past few years, my idea of God has definitely become more meaningful.

When I was young, I envisioned Him as a being manipulating the events on the earth. As time passed, my concept of God changed, and this now seems ridiculous.

[SmileyEH]

It would certainly make some overarching life concepts easier, but I wouldn't be more content really. I've stopped even considering the issue in any detail.

-SmileyEH

[vulturesrow]

You and CallMeIshmael's experiences are quite in line with many stories I have heard. It is most often cited with regards to those who study astronomy, follwed by physics.

Robert Griffiths, a winner of the Heinemann prize in mathematical physics, once said, "If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use."

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence, would you be more content?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course!

[Zeno]

[ QUOTE ]
That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence....

[/ QUOTE ]

I would laugh.

-Zeno

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if learning too much will make my world view less happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ironically, the more I learn about science (specifically biology, but some physics as well) the more likely I feel there IS a God.

But, I know this is a rare occurance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Elaborate, please.

[philopker]

Interestingly enough, in recent months the prominent philosopher and Hume scholar Anthony Flew converted from atheism to belief in God, though he characterized himself as a Deist, i.e. someone who believes God started the clockwork of the universe but has since then not interfered with the natural running of things. What convinced him was arguments that the complexity of molecular level components of living things are too intricate to be explained by natural selection as they are also too basic: natural selection needs something to work on, and the fundamental buildind blocks of life on which is would presumably have little effect are already excessively complicated, implying a designer of (at least) these blocks. All of this is argued most notedly in Michael Behe's book "Darwin's black box."
I don't know if Flew still holds to this, as biologists have not been much convinced that this is an irreparable problem for evolution theory's explanatory capacity: many good explanations for such molecular complexity resulting from ordinary natural processes have been provided. But I think that Flew is a good example of an atheist open to further argument about the issue of the existence of God with the attendant possibility of being convinced that his/her position is untenable, and I think the spirit of his conversion is in good keeping with critical, rational deliberation and exchange; something all atheists should follow in. His spirit, that is, not necessarily his conclusions.
Incidentally, does anybody know what the story with Flew is now? Is he still a Deist?

[Emmitt2222]

Just thought I should mention that if you listen to a lot of Billy Joel you will realize that he goes through the same thing, struggling to believe something he really doesn't feel he can, most evident of course in River of Dreams.

This concept of wanting to believe something I find puzzling and fascinating at the same time. Why can't these people just give "faith" a try for a day and see how it works out instead of demanding proof. That one day won't hurt them and they may actually get what they really want. I'm still holding out for Billy to become Christian.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]

Robert Griffiths, a winner of the Heinemann prize in mathematical physics, once said, "If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use."

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very interesting to me, as I believe that physics and philosophy students are some of the most intelligent people, and appear to me to be fairly like minded.

The makeup of physics and philosophy classes I've been in seem similar.

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Robert Griffiths, a winner of the Heinemann prize in mathematical physics, once said, "If we need an atheist for a debate, I go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn't much use."

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very interesting to me, as I believe that physics and philosophy students are some of the most intelligent people, and appear to me to be fairly like minded.

The makeup of physics and philosophy classes I've been in seem similar.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an interesting connection. I don't think that students of physics and philosophy have the same mindset, rather they both explore the nature of existence and the universe from different perspectives.

[blatz]

If there was a god, and he was anything like the one the majority of westerners worship, I'd be caught between dismay and disgust.
If God's existance was somehow indisputably proven to me, I could only be content if I was able to question him a bit. Even if I didn't like the answers, I'd be pretty accepting if he was honest with me. We still might not get along though.
Zelig is my favorite Woody Allen movie, if that matters.

[Quaalude]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a very very very big Woody Allen fan. He is obsessed with three things: God, death and sex.


Throughout his work, it becomes semi obvious that though he is an atheist, he very much wants to NOT be an atheist. He simply cant believe in God without more evidence.



I ask you: does this describe you?


That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence, would you be more content? As content? Would it actually bother you?

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, no, it doesn't describe me*. But...

We still have the normal problems of defining god. Which god has been "proven?" Does this god prefer a particular holy book? Does the existence of said deity also imply an afterlife? Who gets to go there? And what about the proof itself? What kind of proof can be so convincing that your average staunch atheist could be convinced? What proof could there be that couldn't be explained by an elaborate hoax or mischievious aliens? Even putting aside the believability of the proof, the answers to the other questions would have a very significant effect on how I felt about it.

For instance:

If god = aliens, then big deal. Interesting, yes, but I wouldn't particularly care. I would ask them what their genesis was.

If god = something resembling the Judeo-Christian god, then I think he has a lot of explaining to do.

Actually, it's hard for me to even write a serious response to this, as I think that the idea of a "god" existing is so ridiculous that it is silly to even entertain the idea.

* I should clarify that this no longer describes me. When I first became an atheist, and for maybe a few years after, I found it to be rather depressing and frightening to contemplate my own eventual non-existence. But, that has worn off. It just doesn't bother me anymore. One could perhaps liken it to withdrawal from a powerful drug, except that the drug no longer has any lure whatsoever, and barring severe brain damage, the likelihood of a relapse is exceedingly remote. I think it is primarily this fear of nonexistence that keeps the god-junkies sucking at the teat of religion. Who wouldn't like to live on after death? Sure, I used to want to believe, but I've matured beyond that. I can no longer seriously entertain such a thing any more than I can seriously entertain wanting to believe in the Tooth Fairy. In the grand scheme of the universe, humans are simply not that important. However, I have come to realize that most people are not as scientifically minded as me, and that humans are genetically predisposed toward religion anyway. So, I generally don't (directly) call them stupid twits anymore. /images/graemlins/grin.gif Even though at times it may be difficult to contain my contempt.

Rather than worry about god-death-religion-whatever, my concerns now are in improving the quality of life for myself and my fellow humans, as well as the rest of life on this planet. I'd rather make life worth living in the here and now.

[evil_twin]

[ QUOTE ]
If there was a god, and he was anything like the one the majority of westerners worship, I'd be caught between dismay and disgust.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is also my stance. If Christians accurately portray their God, then I would be horribly dismayed. The idea than non-beleivers are punished, despite any concrete evidence of a God at all, horrifies me.

[David Sklansky]

"This is also my stance. If Christians accurately portray their God, then I would be horribly dismayed. The idea that non-beleivers are punished, despite any concrete evidence of a God at all, horrifies me."

It horrifies Christians too. So they try to wiggle out of it. Pair the Board and BluffTHIS do it by saying that those who are truly convinced there is a lack of evidence, and lead an otherwise righteous life, will get a pass. NOT READY wiggles out by saying that there is in fact overwhelming evidence ("just look around you") and those who deny it, do it as an excuse to lead naughty lives.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

You're gonna burn in hell for watching movies made by a pedophile.

[drudman]

I wish Santa Claus was real. If it were demonstrated that he were, I'd be very happy. What a benevolent guy!

I like the idea of God a little less. At least the kind of God people say exists. He doesn't seem as nice. Or jolly.

[daryn]

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PS CORNEL != SCHOOL OF FISH.


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously the statement is correct as

1. CallMeIshmael is a student there and has it listed as his location.
2. You spelled Cornell wrong. That makes you a fish. Since you're from Ithaca, we have some evidence that Cornell is a school of fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't really argue with that. But you'd be hard-pressed to find 10 schools with better players than Cornell.

[/ QUOTE ]

umass wins

[SmileyEH]

Daryn is right.

-SmileyEH

[SomethingClever]

I'm agnostic.

I think it would be disturbing to learn the ultimate answer.

Maybe when I'm older I'll change my mind.

[Abednego]

To me one only has to look at His creation to believe God exists. I like to use the analogy of a rubics cube to illustrate.

Imagine someone taking a rubics cube and placing it behind their back and after several series of random turns and twists of the faces they successfully solve it. How long and how many efforts would be required to accomplish this? The materialists view of the universe seems to accept (on blind faith I suppose) that it doesn't matter how long it took - the time required to accomplish this has been surpassed. Now that is some strong faith.

Now instead of a 9x9 cube imagine the same random occurance with a 12x12 or a 100x100 cube ....... neither of which comes near the complexity of God's creation.

The evidence is the creation itself Romans 1:20.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't really argue with that. But you'd be hard-pressed to find 10 schools with better players than Cornell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know of several within the Ivy League alone that beats Cornell.


We probably arent in the top 100 in the US. Also, UMass does own in this contest.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

I know of several within the Ivy League alone that beats Cornell.

We probably arent in the top 100 in the US. Also, UMass does own in this contest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Out of curiosity, where are you getting these statistics/notions from?

[phage]

The bible provides no evidence. At best it can provide a biased opinion.

[tolbiny]

"Noone can be positive of the nonexistance of God, so even if you were 99.9% certain that He did not exist"

Sure you can be. The nature of faith and religion is not like that of science. A person can have the capability to convince themselves fully of the existance of anything.

[phage]

How does a God's existence, or lack thereof affect your day to day life?
What if the God that was revealed to you was that of another faith?

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, where are you getting these statistics/notions from?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ivy: Personal discussion with people about which games are spread at each campus. Cornell has a mailing list, and most (if not ALL) of the bigger games are posted there. I know of two schools at which SIGNIFICANTLY larger games are spread.

UMass: I think this one is self evident.

Edit for spelling

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder if learning too much will make my world view less happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ironically, the more I learn about science (specifically biology, but some physics as well) the more likely I feel there IS a God.

But, I know this is a rare occurance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Elaborate, please.

[/ QUOTE ]


I assure you that, since I've mentioned this several times on these boards, I will one day elaborate.


But, this isnt something I can just type up in between 8-tabling. I would need to lose at least two playing days to type it out, and I just dont want to do that right now.

After I go back to school (mid-August) I'll have more time on my hands, and post it then. (It also requires me to do some refresher reading).

I know this sounds like a cop out, but this isnt the type of post that I would make without having put in a good deal of time beforehand (the reasoning behind this should be obvious)


FWIW, I have been PMed my two people who privately said they had gone through a similar experience (sidenote: one of whom is a sporadic SS poster for whose game I have a great deal of respect)

[drudman]

[ QUOTE ]
To me one only has to look at His creation to believe God exists. I like to use the analogy of a rubics cube to illustrate.

Imagine someone taking a rubics cube and placing it behind their back and after several series of random turns and twists of the faces they successfully solve it. How long and how many efforts would be required to accomplish this? The materialists view of the universe seems to accept (on blind faith I suppose) that it doesn't matter how long it took - the time required to accomplish this has been surpassed. Now that is some strong faith.

Now instead of a 9x9 cube imagine the same random occurance with a 12x12 or a 100x100 cube ....... neither of which comes near the complexity of God's creation.

The evidence is the creation itself Romans 1:20.

[/ QUOTE ]

The odds of being able to observe a universe that has an observer are 1. Your analogy is flawed. If, say, the room was pitch-dark, and a lamp was controlled by the cube such that when the cube was solved, the light would turn on. In such a case, one would only ever observe a finished cube.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
The odds of being able to observe a universe that has an observer are 1. Your analogy is flawed. If, say, the room was pitch-dark, and a lamp was controlled by the cube such that when the cube was solved, the light would turn on. In such a case, one would only ever observe a finished cube.

[/ QUOTE ]


Mainly for Jason:

http://www.mrbensons.co.uk/sl/l/8/S_V0084334.jpg http://www.dvdanswers.com/images/screenshots/gervais1.jpg


In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 'Doesn't go into detail. 'doesn't need to explain it to you. He's got this massive brain, yours is so little.
You'd go, 'what?'
He'd go, 'Trust me.'
If he explained it to you, it'd ruin the enigma.
'How'd you do it?'
'It's a trick'
'Aw.'
It's like David Blaine doing a trick and you go,
'Woh, that's real magic.'
'No, I'm just standin on one foot and liting the other up.'

Anyway, God said let there be light, and there was light.
'Aw come one! That's amazing!'
He just made light up! It's not like he saw it on holiday and said 'that'd be good back on earth.' He just said 'let there be light' and there was.
Amazin.
And he probably didn't even need to say it, he did, but he could've just gone 'Mmp.' Perfect.

Which means that he created the heaven and the earth in the dark! [censored] hell, how good is that? I'd be like, 'aaalllright, let's get a bit of light here. Hmm, alright, i need some planets.'
He went, 'that's everything. let's have a looksee. briliant!'

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Zelig is my favorite Woody Allen movie, if that matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats a unique choice. I love it though. The scene where he is beaten by the Pope was amazing.

Crimes and Misdemeanors is one of the best things I've ever seen (and somewhat relevant to this topic). So, if you havent seen it, I recommend it highly.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

IT really makes no difference if you really think about it.

Do you think, if there is a god, that you could have any understanding of his ways/plan??

Do you think that heaven is a place full of love where everyone sits around and eats ripe fruit plates and never gets bored despite the fact that all desires are fulfilled and they suffer from no ignorance?

What sort of rewards are due someone who has a belief? I cannot imagine that it works this way.


We are brought to a paradox on the idea of "utopia":

Temporal life is a struggle, that's what makes it rewarding and or crappy.

If we are less than fully content in our knowledge and/or comfort and/or LOVE etc. we can not be fully content (obviously) and life has an element of struggle.

If all these desires are satisfied, there can be nothing that stimulates us. We cannot change from one state to another since we already are complete.

Without change, there is no time.

Any sort of possible afterlife that is contained in time must also be a struggle, therefore, any such afterlife must not be a perfect paradise.

Since we cannot possibly think of a universe or place outside the confines of time, we really can have absolutely no idea of what heaven could be if it is w/o time. If it is temporal, we will still feel desires and discontent and it must be essentially no different than the rock that we live upon.


I am perfectly content w/ the struggles that I now have, why should I care about a new one? What meaning would knowledge of a new struggle bring me in my present one?

I think Jesus was a fine man, but why should I make some leap to believe a bunch of lies like his passing through a virgin womb and that belief alone in him will send me to paradise? I see no evidence, except wishful thinking, to suggest that one exists.

I do think, that christianity is full of value though. Salvation of some sort does come to some believers who believe that the lessons teach us the best way to live our lives irregardless of an afterlife. Those who except the philosophy, which can be a good one. Those who do these things so they can have a fine eternal vacation have suspect motives though and may not be making the most of the life that they have here on earth.

[Abednego]

I would also like to add that the topic is of no concern whatsoever to anybody who doesn't comprehend sin and the need for a saviour. I think if one was honest with himself he would have to admit unequivacally that by whatever standard he defines what it means to be righteousness - he falls short - he does not meet it - he is not that. It is also interesting that some believe the standard is a matter of personal preference. This just cannot be. But at any rate, I don't think any honest person can say they have never done wrong. How these people deny the need for a saviour I find puzzling.

[Abednego]

I think you missed my point

[phage]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you missed my point

[/ QUOTE ]
I did indeed! /images/graemlins/smile.gif
However, how does the complexity analogy provide any proof?

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]
I know of two schools at which SIGNIFICANTLY larger games are spread.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. What are the other 98?

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
OK. What are the other 98?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said I know of two, I was speaking only the Ivys.

This translates to: There are three schools in the Ivy league that I have SOME knowledge about in terms of what games are spread. Cornell is third of those three in terms of what is considered a big game.


There is very rarely a game spread at Cornell that has an average buyin of more than 10% of what I normally buyin for online (of course, multitabling is a large factor here), and I am FAR from a high roller on these boards.


Just to put things in perspective: Smiley told me that when UMass (he goes to a close school) players get together, you find yourself playing with a number kids who are making &gt; $100/hour. This isnt true at Cornell.

[Abednego]

The evidence of the creation is proof of a creator. If you don't believe this you have what is termed the materialist view. That view also is based on faith .... just not biblical faith.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Elaborate, please.

[/ QUOTE ]


I assure you that, since I've mentioned this several times on these boards, I will one day elaborate.

[...]


[/ QUOTE ]

Weak.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]

"This is also my stance. If Christians accurately portray their God, then I would be horribly dismayed. The idea that non-beleivers are punished, despite any concrete evidence of a God at all, horrifies me."

It horrifies Christians too. So they try to wiggle out of it. Pair the Board and BluffTHIS do it by saying that those who are truly convinced there is a lack of evidence, and lead an otherwise righteous life, will get a pass. NOT READY wiggles out by saying that there is in fact overwhelming evidence ("just look around you") and those who deny it, do it as an excuse to lead naughty lives.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not trying to wiggle out of anything. I am just stating the beliefs of my church, and which is based on what God has said in his word. God gave the wiggle room, not me. And if I did believe that God did not do so and somehow lots of people would be condemned without a chance to accept, then I would just say so, regardless of whether it seemed to me to be harsh.

[phage]

[ QUOTE ]
you have what is termed the materialist view. That view also is based on faith .... just not biblical faith.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why must a materialist view be based on faith?

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Elaborate, please.

[/ QUOTE ]


I assure you that, since I've mentioned this several times on these boards, I will one day elaborate.

[...]


[/ QUOTE ]

Weak.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you're willing to give me 3 days of EV, I'll gladly have it posted within the next three days.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Elaborate, please.

[/ QUOTE ]


I assure you that, since I've mentioned this several times on these boards, I will one day elaborate.

[...]


[/ QUOTE ]

Weak.

[/ QUOTE ]


If you're willing to give me 3 days of EV, I'll gladly have it posted within the next three days.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not willing to give you anything. Starting this thread and then not elaborating is weak. I don't care what you have to give up to make the post but not making it is weak.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not willing to give you anything. Starting this thread and then not elaborating is weak. I don't care what you have to give up to make the post but not making it is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weaker is going to vegas, banging a stripper, proclaiming how hot she was, and then failing to back up said claim with photographic evidence.

We can only hope she ends up sending you those photos. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[David Sklansky]

"I'm not trying to wiggle out of anything. I am just stating the beliefs of my church, and which is based on what God has said in his word. God gave the wiggle room, not me. And if I did believe that God did not do so and somehow lots of people would be condemned without a chance to accept, then I would just say so, regardless of whether it seemed to me to be harsh."

Uh Uh. You interpret God's word in way that Not Ready would say is clearly innaccurate, because you subconsciously don't want to be horrified.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not willing to give you anything. Starting this thread and then not elaborating is weak. I don't care what you have to give up to make the post but not making it is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weaker is going to vegas, banging a stripper, proclaiming how hot she was, and then failing to back up said claim with photographic evidence.

We can only hope she ends up sending you those photos. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Find me a non-hot stripper at a strip club on The Strip.

That's right. You can't because

1. There aren't any.
2. You didn't f[/i]ucking go.

Idiot.

[Abednego]

No proof

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh Uh. You interpret God's word in way that Not Ready would say is clearly innaccurate, because you subconsciously don't want to be horrified.

[/ QUOTE ]

David I am clearly only stating the beliefs of my church and would happy to provide a link to our catechism and other teachings where you can verify same if you wish. Also, I do not make snide insinuations as to you having other than honest motives for what you believe, and see no reason for you to do so regarding myself.

[David Sklansky]

I wasn't being snide. And saying you are stating the beliefs of your church doesn't change anything. Because you chose to believe in the beliefs of your church.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

I am not a Woody Allan fan.
And no, that does not describe me.
I don't believe in god and don't have any desire to.
Thank you for your concern.

[OtisTheMarsupial]

I do, however, have a strong desire for something, and that's for Jason to STFU about the stripper story.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I do, however, have a strong desire for something, and that's for Jason to STFU about the stripper story.

[/ QUOTE ]


A) Technically I was the one who brought it up (at least in this thread)

B) I highly doubt he cares enough to stop the bragfest

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
I do, however, have a strong desire for something, and that's for Jason to STFU about the stripper story.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never bring it up. Others do. I didn't even write a trip report about it.

Also, Seven was an awesome movie.

[Aytumious]

If a non-demoninational god -- lets say it's just an omnipotent, omniscient being that created the universe -- was somehow proven to exist then it really wouldn't change anything about my life, and I fail to see how it could.

If a god from one of the thousands of various religions that have existed throughout time was proven to exist, I'm with Zeno: I'd laugh.

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I do, however, have a strong desire for something, and that's for Jason to STFU about the stripper story.

[/ QUOTE ]


A) Technically I was the one who brought it up (at least in this thread)

B) I highly doubt he cares enough to stop the bragfest

[/ QUOTE ]

You keep bringing it up.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I never bring it up. Others do.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=exchange&amp;Number=270294 2&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=%2Bstripper&amp;Searchpage=0&amp; Limit=100&amp;Main=2701220&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;N ame=21723&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=7&amp;newertype=w&amp;older val=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2702942) HAHAHAH (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=275 9096&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=%2Bstripper&amp;Searchpage =0&amp;Limit=100&amp;Main=2758714&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysu b&amp;Name=21723&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=7&amp;newertype=w&amp;ol derval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2759096) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=scimathphil&amp;Number=276 2654&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=%2Bstripper&amp;Searchpage =0&amp;Limit=100&amp;Main=2758629&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysu b&amp;Name=21723&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=7&amp;newertype=w&amp;ol derval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2762654)

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never bring it up. Others do.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=exchange&amp;Number=270294 2&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=%2Bstripper&amp;Searchpage=0&amp; Limit=100&amp;Main=2701220&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysub&amp;N ame=21723&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=7&amp;newertype=w&amp;older val=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2702942) HAHAHAH (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=smallholdem&amp;Number=275 9096&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=%2Bstripper&amp;Searchpage =0&amp;Limit=100&amp;Main=2758714&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysu b&amp;Name=21723&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=7&amp;newertype=w&amp;ol derval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2759096) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=scimathphil&amp;Number=276 2654&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=%2Bstripper&amp;Searchpage =0&amp;Limit=100&amp;Main=2758629&amp;Search=true&amp;where=bodysu b&amp;Name=21723&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=7&amp;newertype=w&amp;ol derval=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2762654)

[/ QUOTE ]

1/3 is valid.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, Seven was an awesome movie.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your play (and its subtle message), brilliant, IMO.

[BluffTHIS!]

[ QUOTE ]
Because you chose to believe in the beliefs of your church.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true but doesn't change the fact that you attributed my believing same to a subconcious desire not to be "horrified" by believing in a different manner. Thus you seem to be questioning the integrity of my beliefs by insinuating that I choose to belief what is the most convenient to avoid such "horror". I believe the doctrines of my church to be true and accept all consequences of that truth, because I in fact believe them to be true, not just merely more emotionally convenient that other ways of believing in Christianity.

[RxForMoreCowbell]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think any honest person can say they have never done wrong. How these people deny the need for a saviour I find puzzling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am one of those people who would say there is no sin and therefore that I've never sinned. This does not mean at all that I think I am perfect. I absolutely make mistakes, and I have absolutely done things that are wrong in my life. The difference, as I understand it, is that the concept of “sin” is that you in some way have to pay for these mistakes, and a “savior” is someone, often a god, who is capable of taking on that payment for you. These are the notions I disagree with. There is no inherent reason to believe that people pay for all of their errors and immoral acts. A lot of people like to believe that because it sounds fair, but that doesn’t mean that it is reality. Furthermore, in my opinion, that doesn’t mean that it should be that way. I don’t see how a world where people pay for their mistakes in an afterlife makes this world any better at all, so I don’t believe this would be a superior world in any way. So to me, there is neither necessity nor benefit to believe my imperfections and mistakes are a sin, they are merely imperfections and mistakes that I try to improve upon for myself.

[RxForMoreCowbell]

[ QUOTE ]

I ask you: does this describe you?


That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence, would you be more content? As content? Would it actually bother you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether or not there is a creator does not bother me much. In fact, I consider this question rather unimportant. If there is a creator or there isn’t, I’m still here; I still interact with the same people; it doesn’t affect my life. What would affect my outlook on life would be an existence of God the judge. Specifically, if God from the Bible were proven to be true, this would disappoint me for 2 reasons:

1. I don’t consider this God to be morally good or compassionate based on his actions within the bible.
2. I don’t believe a decent creator would ask you to worship it, and therefore I wouldn’t worship a creator. Though I am willing to go through personal harm to stand up for my convictions, it would obviously be painful.

[Abednego]

[ QUOTE ]
some way have to pay for these mistakes

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah ...... but there are consequences for these "mistakes" as you call them. You could never pay them ..... there is nothing you could do that could compensate. I'm sure a world in which there are no consequences for willful and deliberate wrong doing is not one you want is it? And some of your "mistakes" are exactly that aren't they? Willful and deliberate wronful acts, honestly?

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
some way have to pay for these mistakes

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah ...... but there are consequences for these "mistakes" as you call them. You could never pay them ..... there is nothing you could do that could compensate. I'm sure a world in which there are no consequences for willful and deliberate wrong doing is not one you want is it? And some of your "mistakes" are exactly that aren't they? Willful and deliberate wronful acts, honestly?

[/ QUOTE ]

I fail to see how the long standing tradition of human systems of law and social mores does not handle the "mistakes" that people make. God is superfluous.

[Abednego]

[ QUOTE ]
I fail to see how the long standing tradition of human systems of law and social mores does not handle the "mistakes" that people make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry ....... these "mistakes" aren't being handled very well at all ........ God has a way that completely eliminates them but for stiff-necked stubborn sinners of which each and every one of us is. I need a savior ..... thank God he has provided. Check out Romans Chapter 8. Awesome awesome read.

[malorum]

"It horrifies Christians too. So they try to wiggle out of it."

Yup sure does. There are a few variant 'answers' from with the tradition. If you want an overview I can provide this, but none of the 'solutions' are entirely satisfactory.
perhaps it's meant to be that way.
/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Subfallen]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
some way have to pay for these mistakes

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah ...... but there are consequences for these "mistakes" as you call them. You could never pay them ..... there is nothing you could do that could compensate. I'm sure a world in which there are no consequences for willful and deliberate wrong doing is not one you want is it? And some of your "mistakes" are exactly that aren't they? Willful and deliberate wronful acts, honestly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Informal Logical Fallacies, Exhibit A: begging the m-fing question

[RxForMoreCowbell]

[ QUOTE ]
You could never pay them ..... there is nothing you could do that could compensate. I'm sure a world in which there are no consequences for willful and deliberate wrong doing is not one you want is it? And some of your "mistakes" are exactly that aren't they? Willful and deliberate wronful acts, honestly?

[/ QUOTE ]

As was mentioned, human laws and mores can act as consequences for wrongful actions. However, the truth is not all wrongful actions will be caught or can be effectively punished. Some people will "get away" with wrongful acts. Do I wish people had to face consequences for all their actions? Yes, but this does not mean it is possible.


[ QUOTE ]

God has a way that completely eliminates them but for stiff-necked stubborn sinners of which each and every one of us is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, God does not eliminate these at all according to the bible. Sending people to hell merely causes pain for these people after their life is over. At that point, nothing can be done to change the sins they've made. The purpose of punishment in the world is to lead the person to not make the same wrongful act in the future; this is why it is productive. However, banishing someone to hell does not do this, as the person's life is over, and they can no longer do good or bad deeds on earth.

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I ask you: does this describe you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I love tall skinny women. I can't help but stare when they walk by. I hate the thought of growing old. I don't want to die. Life is way too short. I am a scientist.

[ QUOTE ]
That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence, would you be more content? As content? Would it actually bother you?

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I ask you: does this describe you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I love tall skinny women. I can't help but stare when they walk by. I hate the thought of growing old. I don't want to die. Life is way too short. I am a scientist.

[ QUOTE ]
That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence, would you be more content? As content? Would it actually bother you?

[/ QUOTE ]

See above.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll be honest, and say I'll need further explanation.

I have a theory as to what you mean, but im not too confident in it.

[HolyBejeesus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK. What are the other 98?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said I know of two, I was speaking only the Ivys.

This translates to: There are three schools in the Ivy league that I have SOME knowledge about in terms of what games are spread. Cornell is third of those three in terms of what is considered a big game.


There is very rarely a game spread at Cornell that has an average buyin of more than 10% of what I normally buyin for online (of course, multitabling is a large factor here), and I am FAR from a high roller on these boards.


Just to put things in perspective: Smiley told me that when UMass (he goes to a close school) players get together, you find yourself playing with a number kids who are making &gt; $100/hour. This isnt true at Cornell.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am not mistaken Sklansky went to Cornell. Show some school pride man.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OK. What are the other 98?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said I know of two, I was speaking only the Ivys.

This translates to: There are three schools in the Ivy league that I have SOME knowledge about in terms of what games are spread. Cornell is third of those three in terms of what is considered a big game.


There is very rarely a game spread at Cornell that has an average buyin of more than 10% of what I normally buyin for online (of course, multitabling is a large factor here), and I am FAR from a high roller on these boards.


Just to put things in perspective: Smiley told me that when UMass (he goes to a close school) players get together, you find yourself playing with a number kids who are making &gt; $100/hour. This isnt true at Cornell.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I am not mistaken Sklansky went to Cornell. Show some school pride man.

[/ QUOTE ]


I was under the impression he went to UPenn... but, then again, an authority on the subject might be able to clarify


Also... I DO have a lot of school pride. Just not in poker, as we arent that great in that field.

[bholdr]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm kind of curious as to what this means. It seems as if you're saying you'd become complacent, but I wonder what would be lost that had motivated you.

[/ QUOTE ]

the quest for understanding and meaning would be solved. how much fun could that be?

[wacki]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a theory as to what you mean, but im not too confident in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Life is too short.
God = afterlife. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
!God = !afterlife. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Abednego]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, God does not eliminate these at all

[/ QUOTE ]

No, actually God has proscribed a way to live in which all these would be eliminated if followed (obeyed). That is the problem ..... nobody wants to be told how to live.

[Abednego]

ho hum .... ignores the question ...... not very eloquently at that

[jakethebake]

I'm pretty sure the very existence of Woody Allen is all the proof anyone needs that God doesn't exist.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure the very existence of Woody Allen is all the proof anyone needs that God doesn't exist.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I saw Jakethebake as the last poster, I think I would have layed even money that it was an anti-Woody Allen post /images/graemlins/tongue.gif (I dont know why... I just had the feeling)

But... have you ever given his good stuff a chance? Its REALLY REALLY good.

I think people are too easy to dismiss him because of his personal life

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
But... have you ever given his good stuff a chance? Its REALLY REALLY good.

I think people are too easy to dismiss him because of his personal life

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't know anything about his personal life other than the thing with his daughter from a few years ago. When I was a little kid, I liked that movie something about Bananas or something. I don't remember. Other than that, I occasionally start watching something w/o knowing it's a Woody Allen movie. I watch awhile and think how completely crappy this is, then I look and see it's a Woody Allen movie. So I guess it's just not my humor. Anyway, I'll leave it alone before this turns into some kind of thread hijack, but I couldn't resist the one liner. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[phage]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
God has proscribed a way to live in which all these would be eliminated if followed (obeyed).

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you referring to old or new testament rules/laws?

[Abednego]

you can take your pick on that but the new supercedes the old

[phage]

I am really not up on my list of sins, but other than the biggies (murder, theft etc.) how applicable are 2000 year old cultural laws to our modern day life.

[Abednego]

Your understanding of sin is different than mine (assuming you believe in sin) ..... it is not so much a set of rules as it is a condition. A human condition as a result of the fall of man (brought about through the disobedience of one man - Adam). Sin causes separation from God - He is holy - man is sinful. Gods redemptive plan is salvation through one man - Christ - God who cloaked himself in humanity, fulfilled the old testament law, and paid the consequences of everybody's sin. An act of love which we only need to receive (as opposed to reject) in order to be saved from the consequence sin. This is the good news (gospel) of the new testament.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
Your understanding of sin is different than mine (assuming you believe in sin) ..... it is not so much a set of rules as it is a condition. A human condition as a result of the fall of man (brought about through the disobedience of one man - Adam). Sin causes separation from God - He is holy - man is sinful. Gods redemptive plan is salvation through one man - Christ - God who cloaked himself in humanity, fulfilled the old testament law, and paid the consequences of everybody's sin. An act of love which we only need to receive (as opposed to reject) in order to be saved from the consequence sin. This is the good news (gospel) of the new testament.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard this story so many times and I still find it to be remarkable that so many people gobble it up.

[RicktheRuler]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That is, IF somehow you were given proof of God's existence, would you be more content? As content? Would it actually bother you?

[/ QUOTE ]

more. much more. In fact, I'd be so content that my life would likely lose all meaning... It's a beautiful dream, god and religion... i wish it were true, i honestly do, but i don't think it is. It must be nice to honestly believe without a shread of doubt. must be nice...

[/ QUOTE ]

That about sums it up for me as well.

[Abednego]

I love to tell the story

[jgorham]

In high school I set out to discover if I believed in God or not. When the whole process became more difficult than I was willing to endure, I decided to just believe in God because it made me a lot happier. This isn't how I feel anymore, but I recommend it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
In high school I set out to discover if I believed in God or not. When the whole process became more difficult than I was willing to endure, I decided to just believe in God because it made me a lot happier. This isn't how I feel anymore, but I recommend it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's how I make all of my decisions. When thinking or acting gets too arduous, I just settle for a cop out. Now I'm a shell of what I could have been. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif