Quick help - flipped up cards before saying anything

[VinnyTheFish]

Searched and check Robert's rule, but I cannot seem to find an exact answer. I saw that tournament rules vary here, but we are playing a ring and follow Robert's rule as best we can.

Simply:

2 players left, Flop is dealt. K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.

Player 1 goes all-in. Player 2 waits about 10 seconds, then saying nothing and makes no hand gesters, nor chip moves - flips over (exposing) his cards A /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif, towards the flop, definately not towards the muck.

A few player murmer, player 1 (whose cards are still covered) says - <font color="blue"> ok, that's a fold. </font> Player 2 - says <font color="red"> No, I call. </font>

Call? Fold?

[LordBP]

Cards flipped up without saying anything makes them dead cards I believe.

[4 High]

Is it "legal" to tell everyone your flipping over the cards to get a reaction to decide to call a bet heads up on the river?

[Raydain]

I'm 80% sure this is legal

[John Bedtelyon]

No way is this legal, whatsoever.

If a players hand is seen by a player still involved in the hand, the hand is dead. Flipping it face up on the table is simply showing his fold (and poor ettiquette at that!)

JMB

[ClonexxSA]

Not legal, his hand was dead.

This was done in the WPT championship last night as a matter of fact, but not by accident. Tuan put up a big bet to push Hasan out of a pot. After thinking for a bit Hasan just turned over his hand without saying anything. The hand was ruled dead immediately.

[KenProspero]

I knew I saw it somewhere before!!!!!! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Khabbi]

I saw the same thing happen on a televised Party Poker event too.

The ruling was that the hand was dead when it was exposed.

[dachord]

I didn't think that it was wrong either, until I did it at the Grand in Tunica a while back. I turned over my pocket kings after betting was completed on the turn card (thinking that it was the river card). The dealer instantly ruled my hand dead. Not only did I lose a big pot, I felt even worse.

[VinnyTheFish]

Thanks all. Has anyone sen the exact rule in Robert's or anywhere else.

Thanks again!

[kodonnell]

I really varies by the house rules. I have yet to see a casino call this as a live hand. However in many home games, mine included, exposed cards are live (the player will get yelled at, but they are still live). If it is a blatant ploy or repeated offenses, I may rule differently though. You just need to make sure your players are aware of this. I think it's retarded if a player accidentally exposes his cards (which is definately -ev) and his hand is ruled dead. 99% of the time it's an accident. It's really dependent on the atmosphere of the game...is it casual, or serious?

According to Robert's Rules in Irregularities #12:
A card that is flashed by a player will play.

Does an exposed hand count as a flashed card? I think this rule may apply, but may not. It depends on the intent. Was it accidental or done on purpose? I think either way, your players should be made aware of how the ruling will go in advance.

K

[VinnyTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]
Does an exposed hand count as a flashed card? I think this rule may apply, but may not. It depends on the intent. Was it accidental or done on purpose? I think either way, your players should be made aware of how the ruling will go in advance.


[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. We try to folow rules played by the Borgota. But as we all know, rules can be unknown, or just missed.

In our game, any hand shown, is folded. I still can not figure out how anyone let this guy keep his hand live. But one player said casinos allow it. Almost all rules questions go through me, but since I was in the hand, I had very little say.

I was not about to get irate, with respect to the host, but I was furious.

Of course the Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif hits on the river and I lost. If I won the hand, I was goingt to tell them how wrong they were by keeping the hand live. But I lost and any arguement is sour grapes.

Yes - I will definately make sure that EVERYONE THERE knows it.

[Stew]

As is usual, you have several different morons with several different answers and not one of them actually knows what they are talking about.

First off, HOUSE Rules are always followed, so if there is a house rule on this, it prevails over all.

In a ring game, this is perfectly acceptable.

In a tourney, the cards are dead, once they are exposed.

[valejo]

This reminds me of when I would try to combine the letters T and F on the True/False questions in middle school. I never got credit and neither should this absent-minded player or trickster.

[ClonexxSA]

[ QUOTE ]
As is usual, you have several different morons with several different answers and not one of them actually knows what they are talking about.

First off, HOUSE Rules are always followed, so if there is a house rule on this, it prevails over all.

In a ring game, this is perfectly acceptable.

In a tourney, the cards are dead, once they are exposed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, its pretty apparent that there was no house rule or else there wouldn't even be a question.

Second, tourney or ring, how can this be considered legal if theres no house rule on it? I can then flip my cards over, look at the guys reaction and then say "Oh, I didn't call, I folded" if I don't like what I see. There is no way to know the persons intentions if they do not verbalize it before turning over their cards.

If there is a standing house rule that says exposing your cards without a word is always considered calling then it's fine. In this instance it doesn't seem like there was a house rule, therefor the hand can in no way be deemed live.

[kodonnell]

[ QUOTE ]
As is usual, you have several different morons with several different answers and not one of them actually knows what they are talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]
First, you call us "morons" and tell us we don't know what we are talking about, then you say house rules always prevail.....you must know every house rule for every casino everywhere to be able to say we don't know what we are talking about. Pretty bold of you.
All of the answers provided may be correct for each persons local casino or home game.

[ QUOTE ]
First off, HOUSE Rules are always followed, so if there is a house rule on this, it prevails over all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Duh. There are ONLY house rules.

[ QUOTE ]
In a ring game, this is perfectly acceptable.

In a tourney, the cards are dead, once they are exposed.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is currently no sanctioning body for poker like the NBA, MLB, or NFL. There are no rules which are not "house rules". This has been a topic many times in online articles as well as articles in CardPlayer. There is no "official" rule book for poker....and no...Robert's Rules is not the "official" rule book.

While you say that it is acceptable in ring games and not in tournaments, that may be the generally accepted rules that you play by in either your home game or at your local casino, but they are not the official rules everywhere. Just keep in mind, there are no rules. We assume them to be what they are only because it is the way we have played, not because it is written in some official rule book...there is no official rule book.

[baronzeus]

In the 88 WSOP, Johnny Chan flipped over his cards THEN pushed his chips in on the last hand. He didn't say anything I don't believe.

Is this correct? I think this is legal.

[ClonexxSA]

[ QUOTE ]
In the 88 WSOP, Johnny Chan flipped over his cards THEN pushed his chips in on the last hand. He didn't say anything I don't believe.

Is this correct? I think this is legal.

[/ QUOTE ]

He said call, then flipped over his cards, then moved his chips (which doesnt really matter when he moved his chips)

[EStreet20]

It depends on the casino/tourney. Some rooms allow you to do so if the pot is heads up and you're decideing a call/but not multi-way. If it's multiway I think the hand is dead anywhere. I also know for a fact that it's not definitely illegal in any tournament setting because Doyle Brunson did it in the Poker Superstars tourney in a heads up pot. Other guy went all in, he flipped over QQ and said I might call that, then called. According to SuperSystem he used to do this nearly every time someone went all-in on him heads up in a cash game. However, now I think most rooms have disallowed this move but I've heard that some still let it play.

Good luck,
Matt

[b00gal00ga]

WSOP 1994, when it was heads up between Russ Hamilton and that "white miyagi" guy, i forgot his real name, white miyagi flipped his cards face up to get hamilton's reaction, before making his decision. although, he did leave the cards in front of him; he didnt push it towards the muck or the flop or anything like that.

I thought that it was legal as long as the pot was heads up, but the tournament director could give you a warning for it?

[xorbie]

As another poster said, just follow whatever rules you have. If you don't have a rule, now's a good time to make one. If I was player 1 I would just sit there and wait for player 2 to either call or fold, because in my game the cards are live until you either muck them or say fold.

[The_Missile]

In the games I play in (home games), that's simply flipping for a reaction, which is allowed based on our rules. I say that it's a call, because the cards were not flipped up in the direction of the folded cards, nor did there seem to be any intention of folding. Thus, it's a call.

[CancerMan]

In my home game, only one kid has ever done it. He misused it which made it the funniest part. On the river, it's King, 9, 8, 5, 2. No flush possibility. Player 1 bets, Player 2 flips over his pocket Queens, to try and get a read (this kid is a moron and doesn't know how to read anyone). Says something like, "I don't think you got this beat, I KNOW you don't have this beat." And raises him. Player 1 raises all in. Player 2 folds. Player 1 shows his pair of nines.
I consider flipping your cards to be poor etiquette and this is when the home game was just getting started. I tried to move to make it illegal, along with talking about your hand. But everyone else wanted to allow it simply because of that one instance.

[Doc7]

At 6 AM this morning, on my deal, 3-handed. I've got around 33 dollars in chips, person to my left has 26, 27, and then the big blind has maybe 4 dollars left. (We were finishing up)

I deal and I accidently deal my last card face up, it's a 9. I say I don't really care I could play the hand and the player whos house it is and the big blind agree that we could play the hand as is. (As it turns out, the big blind, short-stacked, has pocket Jacks)
(Note: I did not look at my down card yet when I said I could play the hand anyway, and did not look at it until we decided to continue the hand)

My down card is a King. Flop is 10 J [brick] I figure to try something tricky and bet out a little bit. He looks at my 9 and calls my dollar bet. Turn is a queen. with an open ended straight showing face up, I push him all in. He calls with his trip jacks and I show my other card, the kingm to take the pot when the river bricks : )

[Johnny5]

Robert's Rules:

Section 15: Tournaments

# 21) "Showing cards from a live hand during the action injures the rights of other players still competing in an event, who wish to see contestants eliminated. A player in a multihanded pot may not show any cards during a deal. Heads-up, a player may not show any cards unless the event has only two remaining players, or is winner-take-all. If a player deliberately shows a card, the player may be penalized (but his hand will not be ruled dead). Verbally stating one’s hand during the play may be penalized. "

[Richie Rich]

P2 never announced his move (call or fold) before P1's comment. In a HU situation, I believe P2 is allowed to flip his cards to try and get a read from his opponent, as long as they don't touch the muck pile. P1 didn't have a right to call P2's move. It's a call in my book, although poorly done if you consider the etiquette of it all.