How do you play this, and what's the river play?

[Chaostracize]

Real basic hand here. Does the turn lead look ok? Is a value bet on the river absolutely necessary (I alreayd know the answer is yes). How much should it be?


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t995)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t975)
MP3 (t955)
CO (t1165)
Button (t975)
SB (t985)
Hero (t1000)
UTG (t1950)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t30</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, SB calls t20, Hero calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15.

Flop: (t117.50) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t85</font>, SB folds, Hero calls t85, UTG+1 calls t85.

Turn: (t372.50) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t175</font>, UTG+1 calls t175, MP1 folds.

River: (t722.50) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero...

And BTW, the converter worked FINE for me.

[ChuckNorris]

I don't understand your flop check/call at all. Lead out, and go all-in if raised. Leading out on the turn is a good idea. On the river... I don't know, you should have all your money in the middle by now, but in your situation I think I'd bet something like 1/2 pot or maybe even a little less, like 2/5.

[suited_ace]

Oy vey.... The check/call on the flop is no good (you should have dumped a pot-size raise there). After this call, I think you should have gone for a CR on the turn to define your hand. I don't like to lead the turn because I get no information with the bet. Villain is too likely to just call, almost regardless of what hand he has. This would be a good line if you had a set.

I guess you could then go for a CR on the river, but you would have saved yourself a whole lot of trouble had you raised the flop like you should.

[Chaostracize]

Why do I want to play such a big pot here? I'm trying to keep it small.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Oy vey.... The check/call on the flop is no good (you should have dumped a pot-size raise there). After this call, I think you should have gone for a CR on the turn to define your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

A double checkraise to 'define your hand'.. That's pretty exotic. Especially since hero has nowhere near enough chips to do anything but push / call a push on the turn if there is a pot sized raise on the flop

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like to lead the turn because I get no information with the bet. Villain is too likely to just call, almost regardless of what hand he has. This would be a good line if you had a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Leading the turn and getting called by top pairs with crappy kickers is good, giving away free cards to all kinds of draws, including a flush draw, is bad.

[ChuckNorris]

[ QUOTE ]
Why do I want to play such a big pot here? I'm trying to keep it small.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have TPTK. You aim for their stacks, not small pots.

[suited_ace]

[ QUOTE ]
A double checkraise to 'define your hand'.. That's pretty exotic. Especially since hero has nowhere near enough chips to do anything but push / call a push on the turn if there is a pot sized raise on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not proposing a double checkraise. I'm saying he should have bet the pot on the flop, but since he didn't CR on the flop. He didn't do that either, so CR the turn (I don't think villain checks the turn behind after his check/call on the flop). Instead, he bet out the turn and got called. Betting out the river is ok, but the hand was played so strangely that I think there's a good chance villain won't check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Leading the turn and getting called by top pairs with crappy kickers is good, giving away free cards to all kinds of draws, including a flush draw, is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you have a point here.

[adanthar]

It's a Q83r flop. What's Hero afraid of that he needs to blow everyone else out? Check/calling is fine.

The turn isn't scary (oh no not a flush draw) but some other guy says he has a Q so you should feel free to get the chips in here. I think I make it 300, or possibly try to CR if I think one of them will bet again.

Having underbet the turn, the river's probably a blocking bet.

[Chaostracize]

Yeah, I think I can find a bigger bet there on the turn. Good point. I thought I was going insane with all this talk of trying to get my stack in the middle on the flop.