BB especial

[SossMan]

I have a tight image since coming to this table about two orbits ago. I have stolen the blinds once and folded the rest of the time. The SB in this hand is a prop at the cardroom. He's a good player, i think he thinks i'm weaktight, but i can't be sure.

blinds 200-400
down to final 3 tables
i have an above average stack of around 8k
I have the SB barely covered.

folded to SB who opens for 1200.

I have JJ.

My play?

[gumpzilla]

So if he views you as weak/tight, presumably he's raising almost any two here. So he's probably also going to fold just about everything if you make any kind of raise here, which is fine, but it would be nice to get more. I think much depends on how likely I think he is to continue on the flop with junk in this spot after you call PF. Probably pretty likely, given your description of the situation. If so, I'd plan on calling, and then pushing over a flop bet. If he doesn't bet the flop, I probably lead out for 1400 or so and hope to wrap it up. I'm not sure what I'd do if he c/r'd me on a flop and there was an over to J out there.

[kuro]

You either move in preflop or you flat call and try to get villain to bet into you or check-raise you on the flop with a marginal hand or no hand.

I generally just move in because it's simple and I hope villain and others take notice and think twice of raising my blinds with a junk hand.

[fnord_too]

My initial though is to go tarzan. I'm not crazy about playing JJ post flop oop here against a good opponent with so little room to manoever. I'd be happy to pick up the 1200 and send a "DON'T ATTACK MY BLIND" message to him.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
You either move in preflop or you flat call and try to get villain to bet into you or check-raise you on the flop with a marginal hand or no hand.

I generally just move in because it's simple and I hope villain and others take notice and think twice of raising my blinds with a junk hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

why would i let him off the hand so easily?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
My initial though is to go tarzan. I'm not crazy about playing JJ post flop oop here against a good opponent with so little room to manoever. I'd be happy to pick up the 1200 and send a "DON'T ATTACK MY BLIND" message to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm in position. in california the BB acts after the SB on every round. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Erik Blazynski]

So you are the BB I assume. I think this in an easy raise. to 2400, if he pops you back fold, but he'll think twice about stealing your blinds..

[Schaefer]

I'd take half my stack and slam it in the middle while staring at him intensely. Hopefully he'll think you're making a weak stand, trying to slow him down but still leaving yourself room to fold, enticing him to come back over the top. Clearly folding to his push is not an option.

Once I put in half my stack I'm not folding postflop if he pulls the stop and go.

Schaefer

[TheJackal]

Raise to 3k and play the hand with position. If he pushes, I'd grit my teeth and call.

[Schaefer]

Well, for some reason I thought that your post said 3 players left, not 3 tables. I think most of what I said still applies. Let me think.

[nolanfan34]

I'll go against the common thought and say raise to about 3000. If you take down what's in the pot, so be it. If he calls, then not only could you get a favorable low flop, but an A or K is going to be a nice bluffing card if he checks to you. If he thinks you're weak tight, he's never going to think you'd push without at least top pair.

If he traps you, so be it, but I think you have too much value to merely push. Interesting decision.

Edit: Of course a couple of people suggest the same action while I'm writing my post, so it's no longer against common thought. I guess I'm running bad at the tables and on the forum at the same time. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[hemstock]

You have to raise. If he doesnt have junk hes most probably got an ace. If you just call and an A,K or a Q hits you're behind and he has control of the hand. By raising you take control of the hand pf. I would raise 2400 since I could fold to a push.

[bugstud]

make it 2k /images/graemlins/shocked.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

meh, I like the 3-4k ideas. He'll be a n00b and call his KTo and suckout, but that's poker.

[SossMan]

well, i went against the common theme here and flat called. when i was doing it, i knew that it was high risk, high reward. I wanted him to think that he still had control of the hand.

So, the flop comes very nicely for me:

J T 6 rainbow

He bets out 1500. I have about 7000. He has slightly less.

action?

[TheJackal]

I'd probably raise to 4k at this point and hope he gets stubborn with AK,AA,KK,QQ,TT. I don't really like flat calling, if the board wasn't connected, I'd think it would be ok. I'm guessing you probably flat called though, and that's not bad, but I think raising is better. The merits of raising are you commit him to the hand, but you also drive him away if he has nothing. The merits of calling are you might get him to bluff off all his chips (or allow him to hit something), but you also run the risk of him outdrawing you. But since the pot is already sizeable, I'd just want to pick it up.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

He bets out 1500. I have about 7000. He has slightly less.


[/ QUOTE ]

My original plan had been to push in this spot, but I wasn't counting on flopping a set.

I think you will be very unlikely to get a call here if you push now, but can probably extract more by stringing him along. I call again, and I anticipate that the turn will be checked to me. I'm up in the air whether it's better to make a small bet here or to check behind and hope that he fires out on the river. I'm thinking I prefer the latter. If he bets the turn, I probably push over the top, as I'm not sure how likely he is to be willing to bet the river/call a river bet and not also be willing to call a push here.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably raise to 4k at this point and hope he gets stubborn with AK,AA,KK,QQ,TT. I don't really like flat calling, if the board wasn't connected, I'd think it would be ok. I'm guessing you probably flat called though, and that's not bad, but I think raising is better. The merits of raising are you commit him to the hand, but you also drive him away if he has nothing. The merits of calling are you might get him to bluff off all his chips (or allow him to hit something), but you also run the risk of him outdrawing you. But since the pot is already sizeable, I'd just want to pick it up.

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you putting him on such a narrow range of hands. The 1500 bet narrows his range from two cards to....two cards.
I would be shocked if he was close to committed yet.

[TheJackal]

[ QUOTE ]
why are you putting him on such a narrow range of hands. The 1500 bet narrows his range from two cards to....two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what raising does, it defines his hand better.

[TheJackal]

Gump, that might be better than raising, it's tough because I don't want to let him off the hook, but I also don't want to get outdrawn. I'd just hope he has something legit and commits himself to the hand with two outs or four outs.

[kuro]

If you raise 1/2 your stack or raise weakly, I don't think it really entices a push from a good player because villain probably realizes that 1/2 your stack pot commits you and that a weak raise here is usually a pretty strong holding.

You probably extract the most value by smooth calling and expecting to induce a continuation bet or a check-raise from villain trying to take the pot down with a hand that you're way ahead of. However, you take on the risk of being out played and folding the better hand, going broke against a hand that can't stand a raise preflop, and there's no guarantee villain is even aggressive enough with his junk hand to even bet into you to make taking the risk worthwhile. Which is why I probably just push and hope to extract a little value in relief from having my blinds raised without the headache of playing post flop and taking on anymore risk. I'm sure you're a lot better at way ahead way behind situations than I am so you probably are better off smooth calling.

[Double Eagle]

You forgot to mention how fast this structure is. Blinds go from here to 300/600 and then directly to 1k/500 with 15 minute levels. You're only going to catch so many premium hands so you need to extract value when you get them even at the risk of letting him catch what is likely a three outer. Smooth calling preflop and then coming over the top of a continuation bet on a non-ace flop is the play here methinks.

[kuro]

With you having top set and villain being in the sb, he most likely has a hand so marginal that it can't stand any sort of raise. So go into check behind/call down mode hoping to induce a bluff on the turn or river and then value bet the river.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i went against the common theme here and flat called. when i was doing it, i knew that it was high risk, high reward. I wanted him to think that he still had control of the hand.

So, the flop comes very nicely for me:

J T 6 rainbow

He bets out 1500. I have about 7000. He has slightly less.

action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you slow played PF and then hit your dream flop I think it's time to blow him off all the hands you are crushing. Tarzan baby.

[Prime Time]

I want all his chips in the middle, but pushing, won't get his most likely. I smooth call here, and let him continue leading. Thats the power of position.

[schwza]

if you push pre-flop, i think you pick up the pot most of the time. there's a decent chance he has 2 unders, in which case taking a flop is great. and he's a lot more likely to bet again if he misses if you call as opposed to do some weird fishy small reraise. so i call pre-flop.

on the flop, villain probably have 0-4 outs, and you have redraws. he probably doesn't have enough to call a raise, and if he does, he probably has enough to get more chips in on the turn. call and give him another chance to make top pair or to bluff.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Gump, that might be better than raising, it's tough because I don't want to let him off the hook, but I also don't want to get outdrawn. I'd just hope he has something legit and commits himself to the hand with two outs or four outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Soss points out, this guy is suitably aggressive and presumably views Hero as kind of tight, which means that he could be holding all manner of things here. The odds that he happens to be holding precisely an open-ender, which is the only draw to worry about, doesn't worry me too much - I'm willing to take that chance if it means I can extract more the other 97% of the time.

[Whitey]

Theres no way I'm re-raising on that flop.

The guy raises who he believes to be weak tight ( hey he's probably right /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) and make a standard continuation bet on the flop,like Soss says,you can pretty much put him on any two cards.

I flat call ( after thinking for a while,hoping he puts me on a draw or second pair ) and hope he try's to push me out the pot on the turn.

If he checks a rag I'm checking along.

If he checks a possible flush draw I lead out,

If a scare card comes ( 3 to a straight ) I bet out after his check or move all in if he bets.

[locutus2002]

I call.

The JJ is going to play great ATF, especially as SB will have to offer some continuation bet which is coming if SB views you as w/t.

If you push preflop he will call with two overs and you've made it easy on him. If he folds with 1 over 1 under you've lost the value of his continuation bet, versus the times he hits his over on the flop. If he has a smaller pair he gets off easy and folds.

With T2700 in the pot villain will have to offer a sizeable portion of his stack as a continuation bet, and may get trapped.

I like the w/t image, and chances are you might not have to show down the hand. I don't think pushing sends any message from the BB other than I have a big hand, especially if your image is w/t.

[locutus2002]

Hero raises all-in.

He's trapped.

Villain has overs: he calls thinking he has 10 outs.
villain has overpair: he calls thinking his hand is good.
Villain has T or J with an over: he calls thinking his hand might be good.
Villain has an underpair, or junk, villain is unlikely to put another chip in the pot unless he gets something big, get rid of him.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
You forgot to mention how fast this structure is. Blinds go from here to 300/600 and then directly to 1k/500 with 15 minute levels. You're only going to catch so many premium hands so you need to extract value when you get them even at the risk of letting him catch what is likely a three outer. Smooth calling preflop and then coming over the top of a continuation bet on a non-ace flop is the play here methinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

even when i flop the nuts? my plan was to come over the top of any non-ace flop, but i didn't plan on flopping top set.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
i knew that it was high risk, high reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thinking. But you definitely can't back out now by pushing. Sure, he could outdraw you. But its more likely that his drawing dead. Riffle some chips, make it like you've got second pair or something that you're not sure is good, and finally call. Then hope he tries to push you off the hand on the turn.

[togilvie]

Because your opponent needs to know that jacks are in the range of hands that you will jam with in this position. If you only jam with good hands, but play very big hands slower, watchful opponents will notice and adjust accordingly.

[SossMan]

So, I took aside the 1500 and deliberately counted the rest of my stack. I had 5500 left and made sure that he knew that I seemed like I was only going to put this 1500 in for my draw and not a penny more. I wasn't hollywooding per se, because i genuinely considered calling, making a small raise, and pushing...but it gave a perfect impression. I'm sure he put me on exactly KQ.

Turn was an 8.

This completed Q9, but if he had that i was going to pay him off obviously. He thought for about two seconds and pushed.
I instanly called and he said <font color="white"> " </font> [censored] <font color="white"> " </font> , and I showed my set.

I asked if he was drawing dead and he said yeah, and mucked. AT maybe?

needless to say, people layed off my blinds.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i knew that it was high risk, high reward.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thinking. But you definitely can't back out now by pushing. Sure, he could outdraw you. But its more likely that his drawing dead. Riffle some chips, make it like you've got second pair or something that you're not sure is good, and finally call. Then hope he tries to push you off the hand on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

nice read, sir.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Because your opponent needs to know that jacks are in the range of hands that you will jam with in this position. If you only jam with good hands, but play very big hands slower, watchful opponents will notice and adjust accordingly.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't play enough with these guys for it to matter.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
So, I took aside the 1500 and deliberately counted the rest of my stack. I had 5500 left and made sure that he knew that I seemed like I was only going to put this 1500 in for my draw and not a penny more. I wasn't hollywooding per se, because i genuinely considered calling, making a small raise, and pushing...but it gave a perfect impression. I'm sure he put me on exactly KQ.

Turn was an 8.

This completed Q9, but if he had that i was going to pay him off obviously. He thought for about two seconds and pushed.
I instanly called and he said <font color="white"> " </font> [censored] <font color="white"> " </font> , and I showed my set.

I asked if he was drawing dead and he said yeah, and mucked. AT maybe?

needless to say, people layed off my blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can ask to see his hand first here, right? why didn't you?

[locutus2002]

It's considered bad etiquette.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
It's considered bad etiquette.

[/ QUOTE ]

i understand that if i bet and you call, i am technically allowed to ask to see your cards, but that it is bad etiquette. but if you bet and i call, it's up to show first, right?

[hurlyburly]

I don't see how his cards matter. He was making a move, so any random hand will do.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how his cards matter. He was making a move, so any random hand will do.

[/ QUOTE ]

you don't think there's a pretty big difference here between 23o and AJ?

[locutus2002]

I found out that it was bad etiquette at the WSOP NL Shootout.

I asked to see the other players hand and the player next to me told me that it was "considered bad etiquette", but that I could compel the hand to be shown if I wanted.

[locutus2002]

I think villain made a mistake by trying to blow you off the hand, but I don't see him getting away from the T in any case.

I can see your line, but I prefer to push the flop, because villain can check fold with overs here with only one card left to go. I also think there are alot of turn cards that could make villain more likely to throw down the hand.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]

even when i flop the nuts? my plan was to come over the top of any non-ace flop, but i didn't plan on flopping top set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, flopping the nuts, smooth calling the flop and having him push into you drawing dead is a much better line obviously. Why didn't I think of that?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

even when i flop the nuts? my plan was to come over the top of any non-ace flop, but i didn't plan on flopping top set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, flopping the nuts, smooth calling the flop and having him push into you drawing dead is a much better line obviously. Why didn't I think of that?

[/ QUOTE ]

ahhhhh....you need to stop being so weak tight