KQo steal

[QTip]

You're the button with KQo, and raise. The sb folds, but the bb (a semi-loose and fairly aggressive player) calls.

The flop comes: 268r

Scenario 1: bb bets, you do what and why?

Scenario 2: bb checks, you do what and why?

Edit: I'm going to play some cards. I'll respond to response later tonight.

[WillMagic]

[ QUOTE ]
You're the button with KQo, and raise. The sb folds, but the bb (a semi-loose and fairly aggressive player) calls.

The flop comes: 268r

Scenario 1: bb bets, you do what and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I raise, because he could be making this bet with a super-wide range of hands, so I'd like to put myself in the position to get the no-pair hands (especially ace-high) to fold the turn.

[ QUOTE ]


Scenario 2: bb checks, you do what and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet because it's my best and least expensive chance at winning the pot. If I check, he'll almost certainly lead the turn and I'll probably have to fold. But betting only costs a small bet and it will take the pot down often enough to be worthwhile.

[GoHoosiers]

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 2: bb checks, you do what and why?

I bet because it's my best and least expensive chance at winning the pot. If I check, he'll almost certainly lead the turn and I'll probably have to fold. But betting only costs a small bet and it will take the pot down often enough to be worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]

What's the plan if C/R'd on the flop?


Rich

[SmileyEH]

First hand, call and raise a bunch of turns. 2nd, bet.

-SmileyEH

[QTip]

What would you do if you knew his hand was 89o?

[DMBFan23]

Hey Qtip,

I almost alwaysw smooth call in situtations like 1), I find I'm less likely to get free cards against this player. I also very often smoothcall made hands and raise the turn, so I dont see this to be a problem with my shania or anything either.

I will raise the overcards if I have two backdoor draws (makes the free card worth more, and it's less "expensive" if I get 3-bet because i have more equity)...conversely I will also go to war with AA/KK and any set.

in situation 2, I often bet because I likely have the best hand, and when he does not decide to c/r I often get another option on the turn of bet or check, and I like having that option...in addition when my overcard comes on the turn, he is less likely to put me on it.

ok I'm off to enjoy my good 5/10 session - it's been a while since i've had one of these

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you knew his hand was 89o?

[/ QUOTE ]
I want to see how people answer this. The answer is very easy, but I'm sort of intrigued to see how some people approach it.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you knew his hand was 89o?

[/ QUOTE ]
I want to see how people answer this. The answer is very easy, but I'm sort of intrigued to see how some people approach it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the thought process would be a good exercise.

[JJH3984]

If you know he has 89 Fold. Easy fold. I don't know if its right to raise if you could get the free card every time but you won't. The pot is laying you 4.5-1 and you have 6 outs which is 6.8-1 against making your hand. Plus if this player has any idea whats going on SH, you will get a free card a very small amount of the time.

[Evan]

I agree. I can't tell if you're reinforcing what I said or disagreeing, but I agree with you, just for the record.

[toss]

2.25-1?

[JJH3984]

already changed and yes i am an idiot

[toss]

If you knew exactly what he had calling would be profitable. You can make up 1.5 SB usually on the turn and the river should you hit your hand on the turn.

[JJH3984]

damnit your right. Its like the debate about who would win: the guy who gets dealt pocket aces every hand or the guy who knows the other guy is dealt pocket aces every hand.

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. I can't tell if you're reinforcing what I said or disagreeing, but I agree with you, just for the record.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I'm having communication problems today!!

Anyway, I'm agreeing with you and thought the exercise would benefit some folks new to some math.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
damnit your right. Its like the debate about who would win: the guy who gets dealt pocket aces every hand or the guy who knows the other guy is dealt pocket aces every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's like another thing, too--the fundamental theorem of poker.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you knew his hand was 89o?

[/ QUOTE ]
I want to see how people answer this. The answer is very easy, but I'm sort of intrigued to see how some people approach it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a routine call.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
damnit your right. Its like the debate about who would win: the guy who gets dealt pocket aces every hand or the guy who knows the other guy is dealt pocket aces every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried being the "other guy" in Turbo Texas hold 'em one time and lost money.

[Evan]

Nate, around here when I say 'some people' I very rarely mean you.

[toss]

We can justify every action we make through the Fundamental Theorem of Poker. I think I should start justifying my thoughts through the Theorem and nothing else.

[QTip]

What would you do if you knew his hand was 89o, but also knew that he was extremely passive?

He bets into you on the flop (not so passive here, but he does anyway).

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
Nate, around here when I say 'some people' I very rarely mean you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sort of thought that was the case /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Thanks Mr. Know it All! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
If you know he has 89 Fold. Easy fold. I don't know if its right to raise if you could get the free card every time but you won't. The pot is laying you 4.5-1 and you have 6 outs which is 6.8-1 against making your hand. Plus if this player has any idea whats going on SH, you will get a free card a very small amount of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]


Isn't the pot laying you 5.5 to 1?

[QTip]

Anyone care to comment further on this one?

[toss]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you knew his hand was 89o, but also knew that he was extremely passive?


[/ QUOTE ]

Fold, very passive = no profits.

[lerxst337]

First, my name is Doug, and I'm new here. I was thinking about the "passive" amending of this question, and I am wondering if I have discovered a "fancy play syndrome" leak in my play. I assume by passive, we also assume this player will fold to an ace (we know he has 8-9, thus he won't two pair--in practice we won't know this). In that case, we have 10 outs, not just 6. Thus, for about a price of a 5.5-1 call, I am getting about 4.5 to 1 to get my "winning" card--6 outs with the best hand, and 4 more aces where I think he will fold.

In this line, I am calling the flop, and raising the turn bet when I improve or an ace hits--mind you, if I read him as truly "passive," it is likely he checks the ace unless he 2 pairs. In your opinion(s), in real practice, do I get him to fold enough on the ace to make this worth it, or do I leak here?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
First, my name is Doug, and I'm new here. I was thinking about the "passive" amending of this question, and I am wondering if I have discovered a "fancy play syndrome" leak in my play. I assume by passive, we also assume this player will fold to an ace (we know he has 8-9, thus he won't two pair--in practice we won't know this). In that case, we have 10 outs, not just 6. Thus, for about a price of a 5.5-1 call, I am getting about 4.5 to 1 to get my "winning" card--6 outs with the best hand, and 4 more aces where I think he will fold.

In this line, I am calling the flop, and raising the turn bet when I improve or an ace hits--mind you, if I read him as truly "passive," it is likely he checks the ace unless he 2 pairs. In your opinion(s), in real practice, do I get him to fold enough on the ace to make this worth it, or do I leak here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive doesn't mean he's going to just lay something down. And, yes, I think that would be fps.

What I was thinking in the amendment was that it would be better to raise the flop and take a "free" turn card.

[McGahee]

In scenerio #1 I'd call the flop intending to raise most turns. Most "fairly aggressive" players back down when they get popped on 4th Street. The same cannot be said of their reaction to a flop raise.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do if you knew his hand was 89o?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO it may matter what the blind structure is here.

At 2/4 there are 5.5 SB's in the pot after BB bets the flop. We have 6 clean outs, so we need to catch 6 of 45 cards. Which gives us 6:39 which is 6.5:1. We ain't got odds. We need to make up that SB on a later street for our call to be profitable. He is aggressive, so we may be able to, but he may redraw to his 5 outs. The overcard may also scare him off. We muck, but I don't think calling is awful either.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
In scenerio #1 I'd call the flop intending to raise most turns. Most "fairly aggressive" players back down when they get popped on 4th Street. The same cannot be said of their reaction to a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy ain't folding. This is a spew.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First, my name is Doug, and I'm new here. I was thinking about the "passive" amending of this question, and I am wondering if I have discovered a "fancy play syndrome" leak in my play. I assume by passive, we also assume this player will fold to an ace (we know he has 8-9, thus he won't two pair--in practice we won't know this). In that case, we have 10 outs, not just 6. Thus, for about a price of a 5.5-1 call, I am getting about 4.5 to 1 to get my "winning" card--6 outs with the best hand, and 4 more aces where I think he will fold.

In this line, I am calling the flop, and raising the turn bet when I improve or an ace hits--mind you, if I read him as truly "passive," it is likely he checks the ace unless he 2 pairs. In your opinion(s), in real practice, do I get him to fold enough on the ace to make this worth it, or do I leak here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive doesn't mean he's going to just lay something down. And, yes, I think that would be fps.

What I was thinking in the amendment was that it would be better to raise the flop and take a "free" turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when he 3-bets?

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First, my name is Doug, and I'm new here. I was thinking about the "passive" amending of this question, and I am wondering if I have discovered a "fancy play syndrome" leak in my play. I assume by passive, we also assume this player will fold to an ace (we know he has 8-9, thus he won't two pair--in practice we won't know this). In that case, we have 10 outs, not just 6. Thus, for about a price of a 5.5-1 call, I am getting about 4.5 to 1 to get my "winning" card--6 outs with the best hand, and 4 more aces where I think he will fold.

In this line, I am calling the flop, and raising the turn bet when I improve or an ace hits--mind you, if I read him as truly "passive," it is likely he checks the ace unless he 2 pairs. In your opinion(s), in real practice, do I get him to fold enough on the ace to make this worth it, or do I leak here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive doesn't mean he's going to just lay something down. And, yes, I think that would be fps.

What I was thinking in the amendment was that it would be better to raise the flop and take a "free" turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when he 3-bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a very passive player is 3 betting with 89o.

At any rate, these scenarios were in the links that I posted in another post. Look up my "AK HU" post from last week and check out the links there. The articles go into the math here, and it's pretty interesting.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First, my name is Doug, and I'm new here. I was thinking about the "passive" amending of this question, and I am wondering if I have discovered a "fancy play syndrome" leak in my play. I assume by passive, we also assume this player will fold to an ace (we know he has 8-9, thus he won't two pair--in practice we won't know this). In that case, we have 10 outs, not just 6. Thus, for about a price of a 5.5-1 call, I am getting about 4.5 to 1 to get my "winning" card--6 outs with the best hand, and 4 more aces where I think he will fold.

In this line, I am calling the flop, and raising the turn bet when I improve or an ace hits--mind you, if I read him as truly "passive," it is likely he checks the ace unless he 2 pairs. In your opinion(s), in real practice, do I get him to fold enough on the ace to make this worth it, or do I leak here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive doesn't mean he's going to just lay something down. And, yes, I think that would be fps.

What I was thinking in the amendment was that it would be better to raise the flop and take a "free" turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when he 3-bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a very passive player is 3 betting with 89o.

At any rate, these scenarios were in the links that I posted in another post. Look up my "AK HU" post from last week and check out the links there. The articles go into the math here, and it's pretty interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the OP says he's "fairly aggressive"? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[QTip]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First, my name is Doug, and I'm new here. I was thinking about the "passive" amending of this question, and I am wondering if I have discovered a "fancy play syndrome" leak in my play. I assume by passive, we also assume this player will fold to an ace (we know he has 8-9, thus he won't two pair--in practice we won't know this). In that case, we have 10 outs, not just 6. Thus, for about a price of a 5.5-1 call, I am getting about 4.5 to 1 to get my "winning" card--6 outs with the best hand, and 4 more aces where I think he will fold.

In this line, I am calling the flop, and raising the turn bet when I improve or an ace hits--mind you, if I read him as truly "passive," it is likely he checks the ace unless he 2 pairs. In your opinion(s), in real practice, do I get him to fold enough on the ace to make this worth it, or do I leak here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive doesn't mean he's going to just lay something down. And, yes, I think that would be fps.

What I was thinking in the amendment was that it would be better to raise the flop and take a "free" turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

And when he 3-bets?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a very passive player is 3 betting with 89o.

At any rate, these scenarios were in the links that I posted in another post. Look up my "AK HU" post from last week and check out the links there. The articles go into the math here, and it's pretty interesting.

[/ QUOTE ]

But the OP says he's "fairly aggressive"? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Some wires got crossed here as I made a couple scenarios in this thread. I agree that raising a "fairly aggressive" player here would be bad.

Anyway, check out those links that other thread, you'll enjoy them.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In scenerio #1 I'd call the flop intending to raise most turns. Most "fairly aggressive" players back down when they get popped on 4th Street. The same cannot be said of their reaction to a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy ain't folding. This is a spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, who is "this guy"?
All I got is "semi-loose and fairly aggressive player".

[lerxst337]

Thanks everyone! You are absolutely right that if he isn't folding to an ace (which a good player won't give me credit for in a steal position), this play is not worth it. Is this play still too expensive if the raise comes from 1 position earlier?

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In scenerio #1 I'd call the flop intending to raise most turns. Most "fairly aggressive" players back down when they get popped on 4th Street. The same cannot be said of their reaction to a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy ain't folding. This is a spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, who is "this guy"?
All I got is "semi-loose and fairly aggressive player".

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a guy who flopped top pair.

[McGahee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In scenerio #1 I'd call the flop intending to raise most turns. Most "fairly aggressive" players back down when they get popped on 4th Street. The same cannot be said of their reaction to a flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This guy ain't folding. This is a spew.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, who is "this guy"?
All I got is "semi-loose and fairly aggressive player".

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a guy who flopped top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well in that case...
Damn, I fold PF.

[mtdoak]

If he checks, check through intending to raise any non A turn. I love this move, as the villian will think you are trying to trap them for two bets on the turn. If he bets, I call intending to raise any J or better turn card.

[Erik W]

I call.
My reasoning is this.
I assume 1/2 Blind structure.
I assume a regular good player who gonna bet flop and turn regardless of card that hits turn and he will also call down with his pair. If he doesn't play like this he will loose out to agression HU severely.

It is 5.5 SB when it is my turn.
How many bets will I get out of him if I hit turn?
He will still bet turn and I raise it and he calls me down.
Some people might even reraise me but lets forget that option.

He will put in 4SB at turn and another 2SB at the river.
That is 11.5 SB total.
We have 6 outs on turn and we got 46(he has a pair right) cards in deck.
This leads us to a clear call.

He got a redraw on river with 5 cards but it is still a call. In a real world scenario we won't know if we are dominated but we also don't know if he will bet turn too.
Sometimes he will let us have a free card if he hasn't hit anything yet and we might be able to pick up the pot at the turn unimproved at times.

Well, please give me some input in my thought process if there are things I don't consider.