The KK took my baby away

[asymmetrical]

Live 6-12 game

I've been arguing about this hand w/ 2 friends for a few days now:

BB is any 2 and will call down to the river w/ any piece of the flop and any draw. He's my favorite player EVER. I've been trying to play as many hands w/ him as possible.

MP just sat down a few orbits ago. Sort of young-ish Asian kid who seems a little too aggressive for his own good. Badly overplayed a JJ.

CO is a very aggressive 10-20 regular. He's pretty solid, but a little loose preflop. He's won a lot of pots with sheer aggression throughout the day. He's raised my small blind at least 75% of the time. He told me he's stuck 2k for the week, so I think he's playing looser and more aggressive than usual today. Raised 3 limper w/ATo out of the SB earlier. Pumps his draws.

My image here is fairly tight and very aggressive.

The hand:

MP limps, CO limps, Hero raises on the button with K/images/graemlins/club.gif K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, BB calls, MP calls, CO calls.

Flop: 4 players
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif

Checked to Hero. Hero bets. BB calls, MP folds, CO check-raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: 3 players
A/images/graemlins/club.gif (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif)
Checked to Hero. Hero bets. BB calls, CO calls.

River: 3 players
J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (A/images/graemlins/club.gif (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif)
Checked around.

Discussion on all streets welcome.

[W. Deranged]

Value-bet the river!

CO's play is quite odd here and is not indicative of a A here. I he had an ace, I cannot see why he would not lead out on the turn. There's nothing to suggest anyone is playing a weak ace carefully either, because they don't have much reason to be afraid of you considering that you didn't three-bet the flop. If someone were planning on waking up with a slowplay, they probably would have done so on the turn.

So I read the flop check-raise as possibly for value with a big draw (which didn't get there). Opponents may call you down on the river with hands like AA or a newly-paired jack. If you get check-raised on the river it's pretty easy to lay down.

[hizo1]

[ QUOTE ]
If you get check-raised on the river it's pretty easy to lay down.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do we know it isn't a bluff/J? Is it because that's super rare? It's possible the other players don't have you on an A. Thanks

[asymmetrical]

This was pretty much my thinking both during the hand and afterward—I put CO on a draw or weak Ace after the turn check-raise, with the draw being much more likely once the second Ace hits the turn and it's checked to me. BB is leading with any ace on the flop, so he's got some crazy draw and/or a pair, probably.

I also felt I missed a clear value bet on the river—BB was calling with any pair here.

Later, I was debating the merits of a 3-bet on the flop, but I think that may have complicated things on later streets.

Anyone else?

[asymmetrical]

FWIW, none of these players were capable of making a river check-raise bluff.

[W. Deranged]

It's possible but not that likely... we're not talking 75-150 or something like that. BB is a total fish and fish aren't that creative. CO might try it, and you might have to put a read on there, but I really doubt it'll happen that often. Remember, the A likely scares your opponents more than it does you. My point about no one putting you on an ace is a little misleading, because none of the players involved may be thinking on that level... Plus, when you bet the turn and bet the river, they may rethink their assumptions.

[Grease]

It seems like the CO has a flush draw here. He c/r when he knew he could pump the pot. If he's good (which he seems to be), he would have bet TP so you would have raised and cleared the field.

That said, bet the river.

[W. Deranged]

No need to three-bet the flop here. You might force out your good friend the BB, and since you are in position you don't need to worry about protecting your hand against draws because you won't be giving any free cards on the turn anyway. Your hand is also not vulnerable to overcards so you can take the pressure off a little bit.

[hizo1]

Thanks. I think constantly calling river check/raises is one of the bigger of the many holes in my game. Somewhere in Miller's book it says that if you can beat a river bluff then you should call.

Am I correct in understanding that this (usually) doesn't apply for fishy river checkraises? In other words, on the river calling a BET is WAAAYY different than calling a check rasie? THanks

[W. Deranged]

I don't think you put enough extra letters in WAAAYY...

It's more like WWWWWWAAAAAAYYYYYYY....

Yes. A river check-raise is a very, very different beast than a river bet. Call river bets liberally, if you can beat a bluff and the pot is a decent size. Think strongly about what you can beat and what your opponent might have when he check-raises.

[hizo1]

Thanks again, my penis isn't big enough to use that many extra letters.

hizo

[mute]

[ QUOTE ]
Somewhere in Miller's book it says that if you can beat a river bluff then you should call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think what he said was if you can only beat a bluff you might call, but should never overcall.

[Shillx]

The CO's hand becomes very transparent once he check/calls the turn. You figure that he won't call a river bet, but you should still bet the river for value IMO with the BB still in there. Who knows what he might call you with (and you don't have to be too concerned that he has an ace). Looks like a straight forward value bet to me eventhough you would expect the BB to fold his missed draw.

Brad

[Jake (The Snake)]

I agree with this. You are going to be called by worse pairs a lot here though so you have to bet. Someone on a flush draw might have hit a pair of jacks for example and will now pay off.

[private joker]

Best thread title in weeks. That is all.

I have no advice about this hand, though I'd probably bet the river and fold to a check-raise.

[asymmetrical]

My Kings are good.

BB showed J4o for the flopped gutshot/rivered second pair, which made me really regret the river check behind, because he's calling there 674 out of 675 times.

[colgin]

I think you should value bet the river here. Other than that it looks fine.

Nice Ramones reference by the way. /images/graemlins/cool.gif