sheffield for cameron?

[ceyoung]

dan patrick show is reporting a deal sending gary sheffield to the mets for mike cameron is in the works. who's getting it worse?

[MoreWineII]

Cameron is solid but nowhere near the hitter that Sheff is. I'm not really paying much attn to either team this year so I don't really know what their needs are, but strictly player vs. player Sheffield is in a different league than Cameron...offensively at least.

Cammy strikes out a [censored]-load too, that was his big bugaboo in Seattle.

[Voltron87]

the yankees would be taking it up the ass.

[kyro]

I haven't been following the Yankees much but isn't Sheffield one of their few bright spots this year?

[Voltron87]

him, matsui and arod are all having monster seasons.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
dan patrick show is reporting a deal sending gary sheffield to the mets for mike cameron is in the works. who's getting it worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

who the yanks want a RF void for their CF void gone is beyond me. If they're gonna play matsui in right he can play center just as well...

[Voltron87]

i really think this is a crap rumor.

if this actually happens, yankee stadium will be burned down by me.

[Boris]

The Mets are one of the very few teams that can absorb a sheffield type player. Cameron is great on defense and a tradeable commodity. This trade would at least give the Yankees more flexibility to make deals down the road.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dan patrick show is reporting a deal sending gary sheffield to the mets for mike cameron is in the works. who's getting it worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

who the yanks want a RF void for their CF void gone is beyond me. If they're gonna play matsui in right he can play center just as well...

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that Mike Cameron is one of the best centerfielders in the game.

I'd say he's behind Kotsay, and, uh, Kotsay.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dan patrick show is reporting a deal sending gary sheffield to the mets for mike cameron is in the works. who's getting it worse?

[/ QUOTE ]

who the yanks want a RF void for their CF void gone is beyond me. If they're gonna play matsui in right he can play center just as well...

[/ QUOTE ]

Except that Mike Cameron is one of the best centerfielders in the game.

I'd say he's behind Kotsay, and, uh, Kotsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, but sheff is behind how many RF's? Vlad, Ichiro maybe...? who else am I missing?

[Jack of Arcades]

Well, if you're gonna incorporate defense into the game, it's more than that. Sheffield's a butcher in the field.

[Uston]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you're gonna incorporate defense into the game, it's more than that. Sheffield's a butcher in the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you think Kotsay's defense makes him better than Jim Edmonds? WTF?

[Voltron87]

who are the yankees going to put in right?

i cant really rationalize sheff for cameron, no way.

[Uston]

who are the yankees going to put in right?

Why stop this insane experiment? Just slide Womack over to right.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
who are the yankees going to put in right?

i cant really rationalize sheff for cameron, no way.

[/ QUOTE ]

that was my question, if matsui is going there you're losing out, way out in this deal.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, if you're gonna incorporate defense into the game, it's more than that. Sheffield's a butcher in the field.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you think Kotsay's defense makes him better than Jim Edmonds? WTF?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think Kotsay's defense is better than Edmonds's defense. That's what I meant.

[Jack of Arcades]

Let's not forget that Cameron has a better contract and is younger than Sheffield. Going into the future, this would be a pretty good move.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's not forget that Cameron has a better contract and is younger than Sheffield. Going into the future, this would be a pretty good move.

[/ QUOTE ]

what are the respective deals anyway? I thought sheff was up soon,

[Voltron87]

we can get a better cf by the time sheffield is done.

whats the $$ difference? 3-4 million?

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's not forget that Cameron has a better contract and is younger than Sheffield. Going into the future, this would be a pretty good move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since when does Steinbrenner make deals with an eye towards the future? He's all about winning NOW. Not a criticism, just a statement.

And I'm a Yankee fan ...

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say he's behind Kotsay, and, uh, Kotsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

andruw jones? we are including defense, right?

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
Since when does Steinbrenner make deals with an eye towards the future?

[/ QUOTE ]

since the playoffs became a longshot?

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say he's behind Kotsay, and, uh, Kotsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

andruw jones? we are including defense, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about just defense on that statement...

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say he's behind Kotsay, and, uh, Kotsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

andruw jones? we are including defense, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

including defense? it has to be what they are aruing about since damon hasnt been mentioned.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
we can get a better cf by the time sheffield is done.

whats the $$ difference? 3-4 million?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more like 6 mil (cameron signed a 3/19.5). There's a club option for next year.

Cameron is generally very underrated by just about everyone.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say he's behind Kotsay, and, uh, Kotsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

andruw jones? we are including defense, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about just defense on that statement...

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, makes sense. would you put andruw in the same league as Kotsay? i was under the impression they were about equal w/ the glove. along w/ T. Hunter.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we can get a better cf by the time sheffield is done.

whats the $$ difference? 3-4 million?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the motivation for adding defense at the expense of offense here, especially when LF or RF will be a gaping void after the trade (hellllllooooooooooo tony womack)

I think it's more like 6 mil (cameron signed a 3/19.5). There's a club option for next year.

Cameron is generally very underrated by just about everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Voltron87]

ok, so who do you put in right?

its not that i dont think cameron could help us, its that we're giving up a huge bat and not really solving OF problems.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, so who do you put in right?

its not that i dont think cameron could help us, its that we're giving up a huge bat and not really solving OF problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think the only way this deal gets done, is if its part of a series of deals the yankees have lined up. personally as a red sox fan i would be happy to see the guy go. he terrifies me at the player (more-so than any other NYY)

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd say he's behind Kotsay, and, uh, Kotsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

andruw jones? we are including defense, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm talking about just defense on that statement...

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, makes sense. would you put andruw in the same league as Kotsay? i was under the impression they were about equal w/ the glove. along w/ T. Hunter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd put it somewhere like this, due to a bunch of different statistical analysis (not a lot of it very good), and scouting both from professionals and fans.

Kotsay
(insert a decent sized gap)
Cameron
('nother gap)
Andruw
(tiny gap)
Torii.

Torii and Andruw are both slightly overrated. Kotsay for whatever reason is still great, even though he's getting older. Andruw' put on pounds and Cameron's had injury troubles + age which is hurting.

Erstad at his prime was damn well better than almost anyone though. It was crazy good. His defense alone made him a great value, when he had the one fluke year with the bat he was probably the best player in baseball.... not named Barry.

[SocialWelfareIV]

Bernie in centerfield is a huge problem.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
ok, so who do you put in right?

its not that i dont think cameron could help us, its that we're giving up a huge bat and not really solving OF problems.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying it'd be a good deal, just that it isn't a really horrible one.

To me it'd be a bit pointless.

[sublime]

jack, can you please let me know what stats are most reliabe for judging a players defense. thanks.

[bugstud]

[ QUOTE ]
jack, can you please let me know what stats are most reliabe for judging a players defense. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

random stathead metrics try their best, but it's really really hard. Try incorporating efficiency and range and such...

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Bernie in centerfield is a huge problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

albeit one they really cant do anything about right now.

the yankees are in a precarious position this year that sox fans of yesteryear know all too well. good enough to hang around and have a shot, but with glaring holes.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
jack, can you please let me know what stats are most reliabe for judging a players defense. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reliable ones are all propietary. The Dodgers, A's, Red Sox, and Cardinals all use something very similar. IIRC it was developed by some guys the A's hired, and the other one, which is UZR, was created by Michael Lichtman, who's know a Cards guy.

2000-2003 UZR (http://www.tangotiger.net/UZR0003.html)

There are problems with UZR, mainly with 1B and C, but it's pretty reliable.

[pryor15]

i haven't really looked into kotsay's d, but i remember seeing him play in portland for the sea dogs and not being blown away (then again, i don't remember him having many chances in that game). do you happen to know any of his range #'s?

[hoopsie44]

Sheffield is a solid bat but that's it. His fielding has slipped noticeably this year and so has his attitude. He doesn't even run hard to first when he hits a grounder.Sheffield is in the 2nd year of a 3 year $39 million contract. Cameron is in the 2nd year of a 3 year $19 mill contract. Sheffield has also been complaining about some deferred compensation in his contract that he would like the Yanks to re-do. I think the Yanks are going to make this deal if the Mets add prospects to it.

[Voltron87]

its like you guys trading manny for cameron. please, please do it.


IMO there are 3 hitters who scare red sox fans. arod, sheff, and matsui. just like manny or ortiz give me the jitters.

why we would be trading one away without a really big upside is beyond me. and cameron is not a "really big upside".

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
its like you guys trading manny for cameron. please, please do it.


IMO there are 2 hitters who scare red sox fans. sheff, and matsui. just like manny or ortiz give me the jitters.

why we would be trading one away without a really big upside is beyond me. and cameron is not a "really big upside".

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

[sublime]

its like you guys trading manny for cameron. please, please do it.

ok. in a heartbeat.

love manny, but his contact is an albatross that prevents the sox from doing other things with their team. please remember that the sox actually have a ceiling on what they can spend (i miss you petey)

[kyro]

Sox management did everything they wanted with their team last year. This year isn't looking too shabby either (minus the struggling bullpen)

[SocialWelfareIV]

Bernie is terrible in centerfield, Womack is terrible in centerfield, Matsui is terrible in centerfield and so on. Cameron is HUGE defensive upgrade and is a pretty solid offensive player. Plus, not only is Cameron going to prevent runs from scoring that the current options don't, he's also going to considerably decrease the stress placed on the pitching staff. Knowing that they can give up contact in the outfield without giving up cheap singles and doubles would really help the staff.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Sox management did everything they wanted with their team last year. This year isn't looking too shabby either (minus the struggling bullpen)

[/ QUOTE ]

minus a top tier pitcher, who would have been signed if they had the resources the NYY have. in NY hes gets signed (see arod for further proof of the sox not being able to take the extra step).

im not syaing they donty have a large amount of money to spend, jsut they cant be as reckless as NY.

[sam h]

Here's a question. No doubt if this trade happens it will spun as a much needed immediate defensive upgrade, yada, yada, yada. But does this deal really mean that the Yankees are beginning to think more long-term?

Cameron is having a good season but is sure to regress to his usual self. Even though Sheffield is older, Cameron is exiting his prime and seems more likely to put up a 750 OPS in the second half than anything else.

I can't see this helping the Yankees win this year. They still have to play some stiff in right and replacing Sheffield with Cameron will really hurt an offense that is already very inconsistent.

[kyro]

I'm just saying that Manny's bloated contract hasn't hurt them in the past 2-3 years. On a side note, how many years does Manny have left?

[SocialWelfareIV]

3 more years. And it's tough to say if Manny's contract has hurt them -- without Manny the Sox might have Vlad and some more pitching.

[kyro]

Two years ago they were at least as good as their ALCS opponent and would have had a great chance to win the WS if they didn't choke in Game 7.

One year ago they won the WS.

This year they have one of the best records in baseball and have been playing great baseball of late, even with their ace out for the majority of the year.

What more could you really want?

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just saying that Manny's bloated contract hasn't hurt them in the past 2-3 years. On a side note, how many years does Manny have left?

[/ QUOTE ]

contract details:

Manny Ramirez: 8-year worth 160M- will make 18.067M in 2005, 19M in 06, 18M in 07 and 20M in 08- deal includes 2009 and 2010 Team Options worth 20M- + 3M of 2001 salary deferred and 4M of 2002 thru 2008- + 75K bonus for every All- Star selection- other incentives: 150K for LCS MVP, 150K for WS MVP, 75K for silver slugger, 200K for MVP, 125K, 100K, 75K, 50K for 2nd,3rd,4th and 5th for MVP voting finish- + receives 1M bonus if traded- + receives a NO-TRADE clause if any other Sox player should receive one- + the PA values the deal at 141,342,731M due to low-interest on deferred pay- deal was signed in Dec. 2000- Bonuses he has received: 100K bonus for 2004 Silver Slugger award, 100K for 3rd place in 2004 AL MVP Agent: Greg Genske Service Time: 11.033

btw, his contract HAS hurt them. THIS red sox front office could spend the 20m he has made the last few years wisely and likely get more wins out of it. all this being said, i /images/graemlins/heart.gif manny.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Two years ago they were at least as good as their ALCS opponent and would have had a great chance to win the WS if they didn't choke in Game 7.

One year ago they won the WS.

This year they have one of the best records in baseball and have been playing great baseball of late, even with their ace out for the majority of the year.

What more could you really want?

[/ QUOTE ]

to get the maximum amount of production for each dollar spent?

[kyro]

Yeah I get what you're saying but you will never hear me complain about not getting maximum production out of every dollar spent as long as they win World Series.

[hoopsie44]

Can't argue with you. If the Yanks make this deal it leads me to believe there are some behind the scene issues going on with Sheffield. Yanks may want no part of him next year in the last year of his contract. Sheffield has worn out his welcome every place he's been, except possibly Atlanta where Bobby Cox said positive things about him. All things considered though, with the lack of timely hitting by this Yankee lineup moving Sheffield has to hurt.

[Dead]

This deal is [censored] awful. I think I would seriously consider blowing my brains out if this deal happened.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Definitely a bad trade.

[The Armchair]

[ QUOTE ]
This deal is [censored] awful. I think I would seriously consider blowing my brains out if this deal happened.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope it happens.

Then again, I guess my motives are different.

[[censored]]

My first reaction was that this trade seemed horrible and I would be insanely pissed, But I'm a big Sheff guy.

On second look it's not bad and would make sense if the Yankees were able to get a couple of prospects.

Cameron could fill the the gap created by Williams in Center which would be hard to fill. Right/Left however would be much easier to fill in free agency this off season.

I knew they should have just went with Vlad.

[DougOzzzz]

Can't be good for the Yanks. Obviously, their CF problem is huge, but I think they'd be much better off just trying to get a semi-decent left fielder and sit Womack on the bench.

I just don't think having 1 really good outfielder is going to make up for the loss of Sheffield in the lineup. At least if they got someone in the .750 OPS range (which should be easy for a LF), they can get rid of that monstrous hole in their lineup and become easily the best offense in baseball. Seriously, I know RBI's are a pretty useless stat, but how the hell do you only have 11 RBI's in 250 AB's on the YANKEES?

[Aytumious]

Why don't they sign the crack smoking Alex Sanchez so that he can leadoff and move Jeter back to the 2 hole?