Too Aggressive In BB vs. SB?

[Chief911]

I feel like Blinds vs. Blind is a big leak in my game currently. I talked to Ackbleh re: this hand, but wanted forum opinion as well.

Background:

Hero had been at the table for quite some time. I'd pushed and been called a couple times by blinds with mediocre hands (A2o that was a split pot vs A8 comes to mind). I had not shown down (or had for that matter) a big hand for a LONG time. Previously I had doubled up the SB when he limped in from the SB, flop hit me with middle pair on an ace high flop, he checked, I pushed, he called with an ace and doubled up.

Situation. I have 75K before posting the 6k blind. Villian has me slighly covered. I pickup KTo in the BB. Folded to villian in the SB, who makes it 12k.

What approach do you take here?

He limped previously with an ace in the SB. So does this mean he's stronger, or weaker? What range of hands would he lay down to a push, considering my image? I feel like the raise here is more of a weakness than a strength.

Thanks ahead of time.

[SossMan]

looks like he has seen you go over the top a bunch with air and he wants you to do it again. your stack puts you in a spot that you need to tighten up a bit so I would muck here. (as weak as that sounds). without the history, it's probably a push, but i don't think that you are getting small pairs or Ax or better kings to fold here.

[locutus2002]

I'd call and proceed with caution.

Here is what I'm thinking given the info:

The miniraise could be a sign of real strength because hero is not going to fold anything, and villain is willing to proceed against a short stack (push is likely) out of position. If this is the case, Hero is probably behind in the hand by 40/60.

Villain could be donking it up with a slightly better than average hand and hero is at least 50/50.

Hero has been playing agressively and betting villain's hands in this situation for him, pushing marginal hands. Villain might just want to get to the flop because hero is likely to offer his stack (push) in all cases. I think its likely that villain checks the flop.

[Brad F.]

[ QUOTE ]

He limped previously with an ace in the SB. So does this mean he's stronger, or weaker? What range of hands would he lay down to a push, considering my image? I feel like the raise here is more of a weakness than a strength.

Thanks ahead of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Chief.

Blind battles stink. IMO the most difficult part of NLHE.

That aside here, I think your read of weakness is correct here. And in my short experience, I would rather play in the blinds PF instead of after the flop.

I would put the small blind on a large range of hands here, and therefore I'm not folding K-10. I think he would limp with 10-10 through AA hoping for you to raise so he could repop. If he limped before with an ace, he would again unless he is a good player and can mix things up effectively. But calling with A-2o does not signify a good player in most cases.

So I put him, roughly, on 22-99, Q7+, K4+, and maybe hands like J-10, J-9. Maybe even more. But against this range of hands I think a push is in line.

With your read, I think he calls with most of these holdings. Maybe if he raised with K-7 or Q-9 he lays it down. I think you'll be flipping if he calls about 75% of the time, and I think he dominates you just about as much as you dominate him.

With the read and my analysis, I push here as the folding equity makes the hand +EV for you.

A rough analysis, but I think a push is good.

[bruce]

I'm not folding too many hands with position and for those pot odds. I'd probably call with a T2o. But I would proceed with
caution.

Bruce

[Double Eagle]

I think you should push as I don't like you two seats to my right.

Seriously, a player that is very aware that you are capable of moving in with air is basically inviting you to do so. I think you can afford to pass here and steal my blinds for the next hour or so....

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
What approach do you take here?

[/ QUOTE ]

getting 2:1 with a decent hand in position, this is a clear call.


[ QUOTE ]
So does this mean he's stronger, or weaker?

[/ QUOTE ]

this is very player dependent. if he makes a habit of minraising, he is weak. however, if he is a solid player, i'd proceed with great caution.

[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands would he lay down to a push, considering my image?

[/ QUOTE ]

also very difficult to determine without playing with him and knowing the stakes. one thing that should be noted is that often times merely calling is a great way to defend your blind. i find that coming over top of someone is something that you should do only if he has repeatedly open-raised you, and it should be done in an effort to get him to stop doing so.

[Benal]

You have position. I call and see a flop.

I'm assuming there are antes? If so, this is a call with almost any two.

[billyjex]

This is actually a tough one. I am tempted to push here because the type of hands he can pull this with, KTo is probably ahead.

But I think you have enough chips here to call and see a flop. He's giving you great odds. Perhaps on any flop that hits you you should be getting your money in on the flop.

I like calling here more than pushing.

As for if the fact he is raising rather than completing this time -- I don't really know if that means he's strong or weak.

[Chief911]

[ QUOTE ]
looks like he has seen you go over the top a bunch with air and he wants you to do it again. your stack puts you in a spot that you need to tighten up a bit so I would muck here. (as weak as that sounds). without the history, it's probably a push, but i don't think that you are getting small pairs or Ax or better kings to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Soss,

I had not gone over the top of anyone. I had only open-pushed from LP and gotten called twice, once by underpair, once by another Ax who had a higher x.

You really think this is a muck? With 20k in the pot, its not worth another 6k to see a flop? Or a push for the chance that he folds or its a race?

Nick

[Chief911]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you should push as I don't like you two seats to my right.

Seriously, a player that is very aware that you are capable of moving in with air is basically inviting you to do so. I think you can afford to pass here and steal my blinds for the next hour or so....

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I like that reasoning. Although I would think that a limp would invite a push more than a min-raise. Maybe 50/50.

Nick

[Chief911]

For those of you that say call. I want you to address two situations:

1. You call, and the flop is K83r. He checks to you.
2. You call, and the flop is 952. He checks to you.

Your move?

Nick

[locutus2002]

I'm checking behind 100% of the time.

If he has a hand he will be getting impatient and betting on the turn most of the time, and maybe small for value. I'm probably calling most of the time, certainly in the examples you gave.

[Chief911]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm checking behind 100% of the time.

If he has a hand he will be getting impatient and betting on the turn most of the time, and maybe small for value. I'm probably calling most of the time, certainly in the examples you gave.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would check behind on the flop, and then call a bet on the turn, even though you think that defines his hand as big?

Nick

[Scooterdoo]

Nick, the only times I would push or make a strong re-raise is if it was clear to me based on a read or history at the table that he was making a play at the blinds. For example, what did he do the other x times you were in the blinds together and it was folded to the two of you? What does he usually do when on the button or CU and it's folded to him? The 2x BB raise can either mean he is very strong, or that he doesn't want to commit much to the pot, but wants to take a half-ass stab. What does it mean to be pretty clear? It's hard to describe, but sometimes it just is clear and you know (or think you know!). In this situation, your uncertainly should put a red light out and you should not re-raise. I would almost never fold here. I would call and just see what happens. If he checks to me I would usually always bet about 1/2 the pot, unless I sense that I'm being trapped (harder to tell online of course). If he calls I would probably shut down.

[Benal]

[ QUOTE ]
For those of you that say call. I want you to address two situations:

1. You call, and the flop is K83r. He checks to you.
2. You call, and the flop is 952. He checks to you.

Your move?

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

1- I push. If you're not willing to get your 10BB stack in there with this flop, you might as well fold preflop.

2- I check behind. If turn blanks and he checks again, I fire 15-20K and fold to a raise. You'll have a tough decision to make if he just calls and checks the river, but I'd be inclined to check behind and hope my K high is good.

[Double Eagle]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For those of you that say call. I want you to address two situations:

1. You call, and the flop is K83r. He checks to you.
2. You call, and the flop is 952. He checks to you.

Your move?

Nick

[/ QUOTE ]

1- I push. If you're not willing to get your 10BB stack in there with this flop, you might as well fold preflop.

Ugh I hate that line - he's never folding a better K and dumping a whole bunch of hands you want him sticking around with. There really aren't any problem cards other than an ace on the turn, check behind and hope he bets the turn. Alternate line would be to throw out a weakish looking bet and hope he comes OTT on you.

2- I check behind. If turn blanks and he checks again, I fire 15-20K and fold to a raise. You'll have a tough decision to make if he just calls and checks the river, but I'd be inclined to check behind and hope my K high is good.

This line is fine.



[/ QUOTE ]

[schwza]

i think folding here is too tight. there is 20k in the pot, and hero only has to put in 6k, for the opportunity to play in position with a hand that's way better than average. i'd call with significantly worse hands.

i prefer a call to a push. i think villain will respond almost perfectly, calling with Ax or a strong K, but folding pretty much everything we're ahead of. if the stacks were a little shallower, that might bother me less, but i think it's risking too much. plus it negates position.

[ QUOTE ]
1. You call, and the flop is K83r. He checks to you.
2. You call, and the flop is 952. He checks to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. i check behind. i think his raising range is pretty wide, so i think he could well have a pair. i also think that with hero's image, villain is unlikely to check-fold. if villain bets the turn, i call (and check/fold the river). if he checks the turn, i bet. (all assuming i keep missing).

2. i bet a small amount. like i said in the previous line, i don't think villain will check-fold. if it goes check-check, bet-raise, i think villain will correctly get away. but he's going to put some chips in if he bet the flop, imo.

[Chief911]

My thoughts:

Min-bets had been stealing regularly. I felt that if he had a big hand, he would have limped here, hoping for me to do what I had done before (ie, double him up). I think he folds everything except pairs and Ax (And possibly Kx).

In hindsight, I agree that calling is probably a better option most all of the time here. I did not think about the fact that I would be able to play with position in this case.

Results: I pushed, he called with KQs, and I was dominated. I really think the better way to play it would have been to see a flop. But I'm probably going to hell when the K high flop comes. That's life.

Thanks for the opinions guys.

Nick

[WakeHeel]

I don't like a push at all with K10. Way too may spots to be dominated. A min raise is a great play from his spot because it invites action and if he's got a good line on your play he's going to call with a large range of hands. I make a call here and see a flop. I'm actually hoping the 10 hits (and is the high card on the board) however, because that's more likely a live card and a winner in this case. I'll make min raises from the small blinds late in a tourny with a range of hands...from AA through J10 suited. If I show down a big hand one time, it allows me to steal or see flops fairly cheap for a large part of the tourny.

[locutus2002]

I'm not sure how it defines his hand at this point. It's hard to make any blanket statements without seeing the flop texture.

If we both hit the king then I want to keep the pot small. If I hit the king alone, I want him to improve.

In case 2 which is the more interesting case, the board can get very unpleasant at the turn. Hero could have any two cards here, but villain is unlikely to have a 9 and less likely to have a 2 or a 5. Of course anything is possible.

I think position, a ragged flop and a complicating turn give hero alot of possibilities.