Big bluff?

[Sabrazack]

This is the first level of the tournament so i have no reads whatsoever. I would like to see what people say here
before i post results and my reasoning. BTW, this was played during the (imo) tougher time of day with 14k ppl online.

***** Hand History for Game 2281527031 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:13504117 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Wednesday, June 29, 08:34:52 EDT 2005
Table Table 13786 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: ONTILT32 ( $755 )
Seat 2: redsoxsfan ( $975 )
Seat 3: pkbsalsal ( $25 )
Seat 4: HERO ( $790 )
Seat 5: ripa510 ( $875 )
Seat 6: TheDurk ( $745 )
Seat 7: playnpoka ( $655 )
Seat 8: Entolitator ( $1625 )
Seat 9: mythx ( $770 )
Seat 10: dbmedina ( $785 )
Trny:13504117 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kc Ah ]
dbmedina folds.
ONTILT32 folds.
redsoxsfan calls [15].
pkbsalsal folds.
HERO calls [15].
ripa510 folds.
TheDurk calls [15].
playnpoka folds.
Entolitator calls [5].
mythx checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, Qc, Ad ]
Entolitator checks.
mythx bets [50].
redsoxsfan folds.
HERO raises [150].
TheDurk folds.
Entolitator folds.
mythx calls [100].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 3s ]
mythx checks.
HERO bets [225].
mythx is all-In [605]
HERO ??

[sekrah]

Gotta raise to 80-100 preflop. Can't let them see the flop for free.. That was a key mistake!! You have the best hand and you are letting people see the flop for nothing!

I check behind him on the turn.. and fold to a pot-sized bet (or larger) on the end..

But since you bet and he's already re-raised you..It's borderline, but I guess you gotta call.. You're getting about 4:1 on your money, if he has two pair, you still have 9 outs to hit (5:1) to win the pot.. if you fold you're in bad shape for the tournament, and who knows, he could be making a play, but I'd call where you are at.

The hand was bungled pre-flop.

[Sabrazack]

Hmm, raising to 100 sounds pretty wierd to me.. I don't like raising AK here. You have no chance to bluff anyone off second pair with a continuation bet if you miss the flop. This obviously gets me into situations like these but i think i overall benefit from it. I would love to hear other peoples opinions on this though..

And btw, why do you want me to raise to 100? thats like 6xBB..

[sekrah]

Re-read my post, I edited it with further comment/analysis..


Trust me.. You do not benefit limping in with A-K with 4 other players.. It's an perfect recipe for an early tournament death.

You must raise pre-flop.

[Sabrazack]

Assume i raise to 100 preflop and get 1 caller. The same flop falls and im bet into, what do i do here? Im just as clueless where i stand, he could have pretty much any ace,a set, some twopair or jack [censored]. You cant expect people here to drop medium aces to raises even during the "tougher" hours.

[kyro]

Not raising here is just bad, no matter how you to try to justify it. If you're afraid people are going to call you with A8 and now you've put in a lot of money as a huge favorite, you need to find a new game.

[sekrah]

With that flop, proceed with caution, but I would still bet the flop with a good amount, 150..

If he comes back at you over the top, it's a tough situation, but you gotta call the rest of your short stack off, because even if you're not ahead, you still have decent pot odds to make two pair or a straight..

If he calls that bet, you push after the blank on the turn.

Somebody may have a different opinion on this, but you can't let bad players dictate your play.. If you just joined a table and don't have any read at all on anybody, my rule is: assume they know what they are doing!

[45suited]

[ QUOTE ]
Assume i raise to 100 preflop and get 1 caller. The same flop falls and im bet into, what do i do here? Im just as clueless where i stand, he could have pretty much any ace,a set, some twopair or jack [censored]. You cant expect people here to drop medium aces to raises even during the "tougher" hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, you don't have to raise all the way to 100. There's only one limper, raising to 60 or a little more would be fine. This also helps to keep the pot size manageable, which is good.

Adanthar recently posted that you don't want just one caller with AK recently, and I'm now ready to guess as to why he said it:

When you have multiple callers, you will beat the crappier aces 3/4 of the time when they call and an ace hits. This helps to offset the possibility of someone hitting a set on you (or other huge hand), because you're going to lose alot (if not all) your chips when the flop comes A-8-5 and you're up against pocket 8s. So, the slight extra risk of losing to a worse ace is necessary and desired, in part because it helps make up for the times you hit TPTK and lose.

[Unarmed]

Given you didn't raise PF, you should be playing AK for value on that board. You're really not strong enough to take the lead so just call the flop bet and use your position to control the size of the pot.

[octaveshift]

[ QUOTE ]

First of all, you don't have to raise all the way to 100. There's only one limper, raising to 60 or a little more would be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to do my best impression of how this actually plays out in a Party $20:

Limp, limp, limp, limp, raise t60, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

First of all, you don't have to raise all the way to 100. There's only one limper, raising to 60 or a little more would be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to do my best impression of how this actually plays out in a Party $20:

Limp, limp, limp, limp, raise t60, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is building a pot wrong? I thought the early stages was about acquiring chips.

[sekrah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

First of all, you don't have to raise all the way to 100. There's only one limper, raising to 60 or a little more would be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to do my best impression of how this actually plays out in a Party $20:

Limp, limp, limp, limp, raise t60, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call.

[/ QUOTE ]


Yep.. My theory exactly.

Some people stick to a standard 3 BB raise preflop no matter what the blinds are.

In online play.. when the blinds are still in the 5-15, 10-20, 15-30 range, anything less than 5 BB is not enough IMO.. Online players are far more likely to call a 3 BB raise when it's only "45 chips more".

[sekrah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

First of all, you don't have to raise all the way to 100. There's only one limper, raising to 60 or a little more would be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]


I'm going to do my best impression of how this actually plays out in a Party $20:

Limp, limp, limp, limp, raise t60, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call, call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is building a pot wrong? I thought the early stages was about acquiring chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, the early stages (first 3 rounds of blinds) are about identifying your opponents and putting them on a style,.. waiting for top 5 hands and playing them fast..

But that's just my style. I'm sure others have styles that work for them.

[45suited]

[/ QUOTE ]Some people stick to a standard 3 BB raise preflop no matter what the blinds are.

In online play.. when the blinds are still in the 5-15, 10-20, 15-30 range, anything less than 5 BB is not enough IMO.. Online players are far more likely to call a 3 BB raise when it's only "45 chips more".

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but these same donkeys will also gladly call you down with middle pair after you've raised to 100 whiffed the flop, and make your continuation bet. I think after one limper, somewhere around 60-75 is reasonable. For the millionth time, I will say again: AK on level one is so overrated it's not even funny. Especially for people who can't get away from it or insist on C betting every time (not the case here, I'm just making a point).

The bottom line is on level 1, I like to manage the size of the pot until I have something that I can bet for value. That's why I'm not raising to 100. Another thing is that alot of players, if they see a raise that is way out of line, it just screams "AK" to them and they're even more likely to call you down with middle pair on a safe flop. Just what I've observed anyway...

[Sabrazack]

After a while of thinking i called his all in, he showed me A6 and MHIG. I thought the chances i had him beat were good enough to call here since he had simply checked from the big blind.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Adanthar recently posted that you don't want just one caller with AK recently, and I'm now ready to guess as to why he said it:

When you have multiple callers, you will beat the crappier aces 3/4 of the time when they call and an ace hits. This helps to offset the possibility of someone hitting a set on you (or other huge hand), because you're going to lose alot (if not all) your chips when the flop comes A-8-5 and you're up against pocket 8s. So, the slight extra risk of losing to a worse ace is necessary and desired, in part because it helps make up for the times you hit TPTK and lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy. Not even close, sorry.

What I said was that you don't just want one caller *OOP* and that it's a reverse implied odds issue. The reason is actually pretty simple - HU, you must continuation bet on almost any flop, but you've missed 2/3 of them. When a fish calls you with 44 (or Ax for that matter) and decides to push you off a flop/call and push you off a turn, he is getting far greater implied odds than it seems PF *when he calls you in position*.

What's that have to do with this hand? When you raise AK and get called in 9 spots, two things happen: you are getting 10:1 on a 2:1 shot to pair and should be jumping for joy, and, when you have a 5 or 6 or 10 way pot and the flop is AQJ, you can easily fold to any resistance. As it stands, congratulations on going broke with your well concealed hand (well, you should've, but of course BB was a chimp. If somebody properly limped AJ behind you, you still go broke.)

Having a hidden 'monster' (such as it is) and then calling off all your chips in a multiway pot with the 27'th nuts because you don't know where you are, but you have TPTK, is how fish play hands.

[45suited]

Well, at least I tried. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Note that I wasn't saying to limp with AK though. Merely to not raise up to 100.

In a way, I think that a continuation bet is almost more effective (against fish) when the pot is 3 way as opposed to heads up, because anyone with less than top pair feels less secure calling you down. Moreover, if you have two opponents and your C bet gets called, you can be more secure in the notion that someobody actually has a hand and isn't just putting a play on you. This is probably just low level garbage thinking that doesn't apply to anyone who is actually using their brain correctly...

[Chaostracize]

I don't like how you played this hand at all.

Limping preflop is fine, it's not a play I make often, but I do do it.

Raising the flop is horrible. AQ, AJ, KT, and QJ are all feasible limping hands for other players. You have a good hand, try to see a cheap showdown. Just call this and see what happens behind you.

Betting out on the turn is just as bad, opponent is letting you get to showdown for cheap, take it, and call his pot sized or half pot sized bet on the river. If he checks on the river make a half pot value bet, but do not make it on the turn.

You can't take a lot of action with this hand so don't prod it.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Adanthar recently posted that you don't want just one caller with AK recently, and I'm now ready to guess as to why he said it:

When you have multiple callers, you will beat the crappier aces 3/4 of the time when they call and an ace hits. This helps to offset the possibility of someone hitting a set on you (or other huge hand), because you're going to lose alot (if not all) your chips when the flop comes A-8-5 and you're up against pocket 8s. So, the slight extra risk of losing to a worse ace is necessary and desired, in part because it helps make up for the times you hit TPTK and lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy. Not even close, sorry.

What I said was that you don't just want one caller *OOP* and that it's a reverse implied odds issue. The reason is actually pretty simple - HU, you must continuation bet on almost any flop, but you've missed 2/3 of them. When a fish calls you with 44 (or Ax for that matter) and decides to push you off a flop/call and push you off a turn, he is getting far greater implied odds than it seems PF *when he calls you in position*.

What's that have to do with this hand? When you raise AK and get called in 9 spots, two things happen: you are getting 10:1 on a 2:1 shot to pair and should be jumping for joy, and, when you have a 5 or 6 or 10 way pot and the flop is AQJ, you can easily fold to any resistance. As it stands, congratulations on going broke with your well concealed hand (well, you should've, but of course BB was a chimp. If somebody properly limped AJ behind you, you still go broke.)

Having a hidden 'monster' (such as it is) and then calling off all your chips in a multiway pot with the 27'th nuts because you don't know where you are, but you have TPTK, is how fish play hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got hard reading this.

[Sabrazack]

Thanks for the lesson. I really don't know how i got into the habit of limping AK this early. A question though, is it ever correct to limp with AK in say level 3 if you have 650 or so chips with the intention of reraising ALL-IN or getting your money in on a TPTK flop?

[sekrah]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the lesson. I really don't know how i got into the habit of limping AK this early. A question though, is it ever correct to limp with AK in say level 3 if you have 650 or so chips with the intention of reraising ALL-IN or getting your money in on a TPTK flop?

[/ QUOTE ]


If you have a very aggressive table yes.. Limping early is okay, if you're sure someone is going to re-raise me.

I was in a $20 multi on UB a while back, prob 600 some people in it..

Anyway, We're down to about 70 to go and I'm around 20th with lots of chips.

There was one guy at my table for the past hour of the tournament who was constantly pushing me around.. When i was in a pot, he was in there trying to push me out of it.

Anyway, i get A-K UTG and limp in.. Right on cue the stooge walks in the door and moves all in on me.. (like 20th and 25th), I had him covered slightly.. I call and he has A-10.

Blank flop.. he spikes his 10 on the turn.

Ugh.. Never been so sick over an online bad beat in my life.. If I win that pot, I can snooze into the final table.